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Should we embrace our grief?
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2018-10-21 at 6:57 PM UTChttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/well/family/how-to-grieve-online-friends-you-never-met-in-person.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
“Grief is often unacknowledged in western culture, no matter what the cause,” Ms. Devine said. In fact, the societal norms around grieving cyber relationships is still relatively new, and to this day, remains largely unexplored. “When you add in the non-corporeal relationship, the pain can be even more invisible.”
This can often lead people to experience what psychologists call “disenfranchised grief,” a term coined in 1985 by Dr. Kenneth J. Doka to describe a loss that isn’t acknowledged by others. As he explained in his book “Disenfranchised Grief: Recognizing Hidden Sorrow,” these losses can often deprive a person of the catharsis found in shared bereavement. “You don’t really have a socially sanctioned right to grieve,” said Dr. Doka, who teaches gerontology at the College of New Rochelle in New York. “But these relationships can be very profound.”
Malice's departure was collectively traumatic for NiS. Some might call it an echo of the older days of Totse, where user deaths were more frequent and our lives were precarious, but in recent years, our community has become more intimate than that. We're the last ones left, and everybody knows one another.
Even in his isolation, Malice touched our hearts and then we were bereaved of him. Our response thus far has been denial, dismissal, and in some cases, outright mockery. Shouldn't we face our grief more honestly than that? Even the worst people on the internet have to mourn the loss of one of their own. -
2018-10-21 at 7:20 PM UTCI lost 2 friends from DH. I mean they died. It was a strange process.
A few years back I was seeing a therapist to get through a rough time in my life, and she had told me that there was new training for treating internet addiction and other issues related to relationships and the internet.
It’s facinating stuff.
I’m sorry for your loss. It is very harsh to see people disgracing the death of others. I just don’t come from a real life world where people would do such a thing in RL .. the internet is a strange placeThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 7:25 PM UTCFunny. I was just thinking of Malice, kinda drunkenly staring off into space/at the wall when I snapped to and refreshed the page and saw this thread. Reading it, and seeing you mention Malice was kind of a, "whoa, weird." moment. Hah.
That said, I've been through plenty of grief in my life. The passing of my mother when I was 15, the immediate aftermath of an alcoholic father who was struggling with his own grief, drug addiction, suicidal contemplations, depression, prison sentences, all a form of grief. It's taken me years and years, truly, a decade, to come to terms with these things. I don't bottle it up inside though. I share my feelings and grief with those around me. I luckily have a loving wife who also lost her father the same year I lost my mother, so we share that grief and lean on each other. I have a strong family support system who was there throughout my drug addictions and prison and saw me through the end of it all.
I do agree with you though. People suffering through grief, whether it be something in their personal lives or even as a "faceless no one" on a website you go to that while you know what they look like, sound like maybe, you've never met them. You've never shaken their hand. Never hugged them. Never kissed them, in some cases. Like Malice. People should, in general, be more expressive of the feelings they feel because to bottle it up inside and try to suppress it always forces it to leak out in other, usually negative ways like drugs or alcohol or other self destructive behaviors.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 7:27 PM UTC
Originally posted by Zanick https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/well/family/how-to-grieve-online-friends-you-never-met-in-person.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
Malice's departure was collectively traumatic for NiS. Some might call it an echo of the older days of Totse, where user deaths were more frequent and our lives were precarious, but in recent years, our community has become more intimate than that. We're the last ones left, and everybody knows one another.
Even in his isolation, Malice touched our hearts and then we were bereaved of him. Our response thus far has been denial, dismissal, and in some cases, outright mockery. Shouldn't we face our grief more honestly than that? Even the worst people on the internet have to mourn the loss of one of their own.
kill yourself and we'll find out -
2018-10-21 at 7:29 PM UTCThere was a girl on DH that I knew only from DH and on the phone. It turned into daily phone calls and she felt like a friend to me. She actually said she loved me and I was like WHOA! I told her to check it because we never met. One day she said she had to let me go and I never heard from her again. Looking back I wonder if she was trying to lure me into something.
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2018-10-21 at 7:29 PM UTC
Originally posted by Zanick Malice touched our hearts and then we were bereaved of him. Our response thus far has been denial, dismissal, and in some cases, outright mockery. Shouldn't we face our grief more honestly than that? Even the worst people on the internet have to mourn the loss of one of their own.
Why do people cry when someone dies? Some people cry for the dead person, they were great, they deserved better than this world of death and rebirth. Others cry for themselves - I have lost this person I relied upon, and their loss will affect me.
But for someone to die when old, or after a long illness is no tragedy. Malice said he was unable to be happy, and his life was a problem to him. Some people die too early, some people die too late. I think that suicide can be a rational thing sometimes. If life is a problem, end it. Cut short the suffering, return to the norm.
And ultimately it was his own family that pushed him to kill himself - his aunts were bugging his father to throw him out following his failure to complete a year in college. He was vindicated - his family are trash.
I wish I was rich I would have loved to have gotten Malice to do research or something. But would he have been happy doing it? Doubt it. Even rich people, who get lots of money, sex, drugs commit suicide. In fact prosperity seems to cause people to kill themselves even more so. -
2018-10-21 at 7:33 PM UTC
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2018-10-21 at 8:05 PM UTCThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-21 at 8:12 PM UTCWe should absolutely embrace our grief. Holding it in did lead to a major addiction for me. I didn’t grieve my father’s passing, within a year I was fucked up.
I just had to “stay strong” for my Mom. That was a good thing, but ultimately a bad thing for my mental health.
Like Grimace said, having others to lean on can make a huge difference. -
2018-10-21 at 8:20 PM UTC
Originally posted by Zanick Our response thus far has been denial, dismissal, and in some cases, outright mockery. Shouldn't we face our grief more honestly than that?
Grief is such a tricky thing and I think that the reactions you described are a part of the process.
You know about some of the things I went through with my Mother. I still have issues in grieving her loss and it’s been years. When I think about how traumatic the end was I sometimes still experience denial. It’s hard for me to think about her becoming homeless, about her slowly killing herself, and about her putting me in a position to make the final decision. That all still seems surreal to me and when I remind myself that it happened I feel waves and waves of a hundred different emotions. At this point I feel like I will struggle with it forever. I mean obviously I hope not but it’s a heavy thing with a lot of parts.
All I know is the more you force yourself to accept something and try to move on, the more grief seems to try and track your ass down. -
2018-10-21 at 8:23 PM UTCCan u grieve without doing it openly?
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2018-10-21 at 8:44 PM UTC
Originally posted by Mewsik I lost 2 friends from DH. I mean they died. It was a strange process.
A few years back I was seeing a therapist to get through a rough time in my life, and she had told me that there was new training for treating internet addiction and other issues related to relationships and the internet.
It’s facinating stuff.
I’m sorry for your loss. It is very harsh to see people disgracing the death of others. I just don’t come from a real life world where people would do such a thing in RL .. the internet is a strange place
I befriended somebody on a forum years ago who eventually texted me saying she was going to kill herself. She ended up going through with it, my name came up in the investigation of her phone records and it divided the forum until it went under. Very messy all around, I don't want to go through that again or see it happen here. The loss of a beloved member can tear the heart of a close-knit community, IRL or internet. We just have a different way of handling it because it's hard to navigate emotions from behind a screen. -
2018-10-21 at 8:44 PM UTC
Originally posted by Grimace Funny. I was just thinking of Malice, kinda drunkenly staring off into space/at the wall when I snapped to and refreshed the page and saw this thread. Reading it, and seeing you mention Malice was kind of a, "whoa, weird." moment. Hah.
That said, I've been through plenty of grief in my life. The passing of my mother when I was 15, the immediate aftermath of an alcoholic father who was struggling with his own grief, drug addiction, suicidal contemplations, depression, prison sentences, all a form of grief. It's taken me years and years, truly, a decade, to come to terms with these things. I don't bottle it up inside though. I share my feelings and grief with those around me. I luckily have a loving wife who also lost her father the same year I lost my mother, so we share that grief and lean on each other. I have a strong family support system who was there throughout my drug addictions and prison and saw me through the end of it all.
I do agree with you though. People suffering through grief, whether it be something in their personal lives or even as a "faceless no one" on a website you go to that while you know what they look like, sound like maybe, you've never met them. You've never shaken their hand. Never hugged them. Never kissed them, in some cases. Like Malice. People should, in general, be more expressive of the feelings they feel because to bottle it up inside and try to suppress it always forces it to leak out in other, usually negative ways like drugs or alcohol or other self destructive behaviors.
Thank you for this. It sounds like you're no stranger to loss and struggling with grief, and it never gets easier no matter how many people it costs us. I'm glad we have members like you willing to put their feelings out in the open where we can make sense of what's happened. Malice is gone, and we're still talking about him like he's here, it's painful to watch. We're used to being a community of outsiders in the habit of compartmentalizing how we suffer through humor and aggression, but I think that reflecting together on what it all means can help us heal. -
2018-10-21 at 8:45 PM UTC
Originally posted by MORALLY SUPERIOR BEING 2.0 - The GMO Reckoning Why do people cry when someone dies? Some people cry for the dead person, they were great, they deserved better than this world of death and rebirth. Others cry for themselves - I have lost this person I relied upon, and their loss will affect me.
But for someone to die when old, or after a long illness is no tragedy. Malice said he was unable to be happy, and his life was a problem to him. Some people die too early, some people die too late. I think that suicide can be a rational thing sometimes. If life is a problem, end it. Cut short the suffering, return to the norm.
And ultimately it was his own family that pushed him to kill himself - his aunts were bugging his father to throw him out following his failure to complete a year in college. He was vindicated - his family are trash.
I wish I was rich I would have loved to have gotten Malice to do research or something. But would he have been happy doing it? Doubt it. Even rich people, who get lots of money, sex, drugs commit suicide. In fact prosperity seems to cause people to kill themselves even more so.
What you said reminds me of something Malice said to me in a PM once, that suicide shouldn't be viewed as a negative. I tend to agree: suicide is a personal choice and sometimes it makes sense, but it's also very subjective in nature. I think that part of how we're processing this as a community is through validating Malice's choice, understanding it as if it were our own. This is a highly visible if unspoken theme in our 'mourning' threads that I've noticed.
Originally posted by infinityshock you can stop the charade you dumb faggot. no one is falling for it
This is a conversation about grief in a discussion forum. If you think it's pointless, at least provide substance to your opinion. In general, try to be a little less worthless.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 9:31 PM UTC
Originally posted by Technologist We should absolutely embrace our grief. Holding it in did lead to a major addiction for me. I didn’t grieve my father’s passing, within a year I was fucked up.
I just had to “stay strong” for my Mom. That was a good thing, but ultimately a bad thing for my mental health.
Like Grimace said, having others to lean on can make a huge difference.
Moving on always has obstacles, being caught between grief and responsibility makes it much more difficult to cope adequately. I'm sorry you went through that. I think here especially we have the tendency to mask our problem emotions with substances, or at least I do. Have you addressed the problem since then?
Originally posted by ohfralala Grief is such a tricky thing and I think that the reactions you described are a part of the process.
You know about some of the things I went through with my Mother. I still have issues in grieving her loss and it’s been years. When I think about how traumatic the end was I sometimes still experience denial. It’s hard for me to think about her becoming homeless, about her slowly killing herself, and about her putting me in a position to make the final decision. That all still seems surreal to me and when I remind myself that it happened I feel waves and waves of a hundred different emotions. At this point I feel like I will struggle with it forever. I mean obviously I hope not but it’s a heavy thing with a lot of parts.
All I know is the more you force yourself to accept something and try to move on, the more grief seems to try and track your ass down.
Even the people we can't keep in our lives still tug at us when they're gone, sometimes especially because we never thought we would or should care. Their death changes our perspective on their lives and with certain people, it just never stops hitting at the most vulnerable parts of us. I know your relationship with your mother was complicated, and it must have been very confusing for you to have such mixed feelings about that. If my sister died today, it would follow me around for years, sabotaging me in ways that resemble what she did to me in life. In a way, losing someone you don't want to miss is very distinct from losing someone you love completely.
Originally posted by DontTellEm Can u grieve without doing it openly?
I think that even if you try, it gets exposed anyway. Something about grief demands privacy and at the same time screams for help. Maybe it only burns hot in our hearts and minds, but it's shaping how we talk with one another regardless. -
2018-10-21 at 9:47 PM UTCI disagree, there are things I would like to remain private. I don't believe them beneficial to anyone, only for the sole purpose to hurt/judge/shame.
That's degenerate, unacceptable, and foul. -
2018-10-21 at 10:06 PM UTC*sigh* Oh Zanic, your random polling of the community is always so poingnant to what I’m going through it seems.
Yes, in my experience you have to embrace your grief enough to acknowledge it see it for what it really is, figure out what this grief is making you most uncomfortable about because you probably are very afraid of that thing, and then almost dismiss it in a way and say you’re not going to let your grief completely control what you do. This probably is going to get ripped to shreds for being a really obvious basic statement but, meh. It’s helped me a lot and I’ve been through some shit. Like so much shit. -
2018-10-21 at 10:11 PM UTC
Originally posted by Zanick Even the people we can't keep in our lives still tug at us when they're gone, sometimes especially because we never thought we would or should care. Their death changes our perspective on their lives and with certain people, it just never stops hitting at the most vulnerable parts of us. I know your relationship with your mother was complicated, and it must have been very confusing for you to have such mixed feelings about that. If my sister died today, it would follow me around for years, sabotaging me in ways that resemble what she did to me in life. In a way, losing someone you don't want to miss is very distinct from losing someone you love completely.
You’ve always understood and I thank you for that.
Originally posted by Zanick I think that even if you try, it gets exposed anyway. Something about grief demands privacy and at the same time screams for help. Maybe it only burns hot in our hearts and minds, but it's shaping how we talk with one another regardless.
Agreed. So I think it’s easy to see how much of an internal conflict grief can elicit in people and why their reactions are hard to understand at times. -
2018-10-21 at 10:16 PM UTC
Originally posted by DontTellEm I disagree, there are things I would like to remain private. I don't believe them beneficial to anyone, only for the sole purpose to hurt/judge/shame.
That's degenerate, unacceptable, and foul.
While I disagree with shaming, sometimes the things you need to hear the most hurt the worst. Those sort of moments usually force a change.
Keeping serious issues private usually causes them to fester and expose themselves in ways that end up negatively affecting others. I’m guilty of it. -
2018-10-21 at 11:27 PM UTCreal men dont grive. they simply take a deep breath, sigh, and move on.
for those lesser menchen that grives, heres a little soundtrack as your grieving aid.
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