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anybody into astronomy?
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2017-07-04 at 11:34 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Scientifically, there is no "before" in any meaningful sense. But abandoning the fact that a singularity essentially breaks the laws of reason, many things could have been "before" the big bang.
One possibility is that we are simply part of either an infinite chain of universes that have come or gone, or are one of many multiverse, bubbles between bubbles that generate and expand and pop infinitely. But evidence of anything before the big bang is essentially erased by the nature of the big bang, so it's not really meaningful.
Help me understand. How would that evidence not be meaningful? Unless of course by that you mean nothing on this level of discussion is truly meaningful, because we're just gonna die here pretty soon anyway so who fucking cares, which makes sense. -
2017-07-04 at 11:38 PM UTC
Originally posted by NARCassist but just because you cant escape it doesn't mean there isn't more nothing beyond it. nothing at all ever. which is just space.
i like my theory that every atom in our universe is a universe. and that our universe is just one of trillions of trillions of atoms in another universe. so there are just trillions to the power of trillions of universes just nested all within other universes. like they just go on for ever.
kinda like when you stand between two mirrors and can see multiple reflections of yourself getting smaller each time but just keep reflecting each other forever if you could see that far.
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There is no "space outside of space". There is just space. It is like the surface of a balloon or something, and that balloon is all the space that "exists", as far as any meaningful study of it can go. -
2017-07-04 at 11:39 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon There is no "space outside of space". There is just space. It is like the surface of a balloon or something, and that balloon is all the space that "exists", as far as any meaningful study of it can go.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOPE. Not a balloon. What's outside the balloon? More space. Space everywhere. YOU CANT HIDE FROM IT.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-07-04 at 11:42 PM UTCexactly, if there is nothing, then that is essentially space. once you get to a point where there ceases to be anything you are then just staring into never ending space.
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2017-07-04 at 11:46 PM UTCNow I guess you could say that it's a balloon that goes on forever, or like was mentioned, a wall, a big spherical wall that starts at a point and then continues outward infinitely, but even then that wall is like, uhhh, like still in space, just like any object here is still in space even if it's a solid object that takes up all the space.
Yeahh science bitches. -
2017-07-04 at 11:53 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Now I guess you could say that it's a balloon that goes on forever, or like was mentioned, a wall, a big spherical wall that starts at a point and then continues outward infinitely, but even then that wall is like, uhhh, like still in space, just like any object here is still in space even if it's a solid object that takes up all the space.
Yeahh science bitches.
its some proper headfucky shit when you start getting into it.
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2017-07-05 at 12:10 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Help me understand. How would that evidence not be meaningful? Unless of course by that you mean nothing on this level of discussion is truly meaningful, because we're just gonna die here pretty soon anyway so who fucking cares, which makes sense.
The way science works is, you observe a phenomenon, then make an explanation for why it happened, and test that to see if it holds true.
So for example, if I see a bag of dogshit hanging from a trailer hitch every day, I can hypothesize why that is the case. For example, I can say that perhaps the owner of the car has a dog that he walks in the morning, but he doesn't have time to throw the bag away because he needs to get to work. Now this model has predictive powers; for example, if this was the case, then you would expect to see that the owner of the car walks a dog in the morning, before work. If you follow him and see he does not, the theory is bunk. But if you do, it is now stronger and has evidence.
The way we know the big bang HAPPENED, for example, is that all of space is expanding and everything in the universe is getting further apart from everything else. So we made a model to fit this expansion that we saw, and there is lots of evidence to support it (e.g. the night sky is not bright white, because of redshifts and blueshift). Os we have a lot of evidence that all of this shit moving apart, started moving apart from one point, and once upon a time, for a brief, brief instant, it was a singularity.
Now imagine if there is a piggy bank, with different coins in it that are arranged in a regular order. Someone drops it straight at the ground from 5 feet in the air and it shatters and coins go everywhere. In theory, if you knew all of the forces acting upon all of the coins and how they were distributed, i.e. if you had enough information, you could take the coins and the piggy bank shards, lying all over the place, and reconstruct the way they were initially set up by "playing it backwards" so to speak. This was there, this was there, this shard goes here, the total mass was X and it was dropped from 5 feet, so under influence of gravity it got Your joules of energy applied here here and here... And importantly, you could even tell how they got there, with enough information, and in theory, who put them there and why, and why in that specific order, etc.
Now see, the thing is, when you have a singularity, weird shit happens. Law of conservation of energy? Who knows if it holds up. Causality? Toss up. And all matter was squished so close together, that whatever it was that was "before" it, has no causal link to anything after it. It caused the big bang, the singularity broke that causal chain, and now we are essentially starting "afresh", with a new causal chain, beginning at one Planck second after the Big Bang.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-07-05 at 12:22 AM UTCI DO see a fucker with a bag of dog-shit on his trailer-hitch all the time, which you maybe remember. It's just ALWAYS on there and the vehicle is almost always there, but sometimes the vehicle isn't there, which makes me think he doesn't have to work too much, and so the running late for work theory is shit, and even then he could throw it away when he gets home. I just don't get why a person would want to have a sack of dog shit hanging from their car anyway. lol
But anyway. Thanks for your explanation. Now let me ask you this- in your "playing it backward" model, are you suggesting that it is LITERALLY impossible for us to CONTINUE playing it backward, beyond what is the farthest we know as you've described as 'all matter was squished so close together?"
Like, why were the coins in the piggy bank? Were they always there? Who put them there? We could determine that stuff based on the playing it backward model, because now we're dealing with a different line of science, know what I'm saying, like, the equivalent of detective work. I can't mathematically tell you how the coins got there in the first place, though we can mathematically reverse the spilled coins to their original place, BUT I can ask around, and I can view surveillance footage, I can do forensic analysis, "study the coin scene" so to speak, and potentially learn who is responsible for putting the coins in there to begin with, and then when you find that person you obviously just rape them and go home.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-07-05 at 12:26 AM UTC
Originally posted by RestStop Ehh honestly not really but I think it would be cool to be in space and be able to look at the earth in it's entirety that would be one epic bad ass moment. If heaven is a tangible place(in the sky supposedly) I'd like to break in and steal of a bunch angelic shit even furthering my influence and power on earth. Not trolling srs here.
God might allow you to do so but then you would spend like.. forever in a really shitty place -
2017-07-05 at 1:07 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ I DO see a fucker with a bag of dog-shit on his trailer-hitch all the time, which you maybe remember. It's just ALWAYS on there and the vehicle is almost always there, but sometimes the vehicle isn't there, which makes me think he doesn't have to work too much, and so the running late for work theory is shit, and even then he could throw it away when he gets home. I just don't get why a person would want to have a sack of dog shit hanging from their car anyway. lol
But anyway. Thanks for your explanation. Now let me ask you this- in your "playing it backward" model, are you suggesting that it is LITERALLY impossible for us to CONTINUE playing it backward, beyond what is the farthest we know as you've described as 'all matter was squished so close together?"
Like, why were the coins in the piggy bank? Were they always there? Who put them there? We could determine that stuff based on the playing it backward model, because now we're dealing with a different line of science, know what I'm saying, like, the equivalent of detective work. I can't mathematically tell you how the coins got there in the first place, though we can mathematically reverse the spilled coins to their original place, BUT I can ask around, and I can view surveillance footage, I can do forensic analysis, "study the coin scene" so to speak, and potentially learn who is responsible for putting the coins in there to begin with, and then when you find that person you obviously just rape them and go home.
Yes, probably literally impossible. And definitely practically impossible. -
2017-07-05 at 1:13 AM UTC
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2017-07-06 at 6:11 AM UTC
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2017-07-06 at 6:13 AM UTC
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2017-07-06 at 6:33 AM UTC
Originally posted by benny vader thats just like standing on route 66 and saying its infinite length cos it stretches all the way to the vanishing point.
no its not the same. you can conclude that space is infinite because if there is nothing beyond the known universe, then nothing is still just space, never ending space. if there is something beyond that, then that something must occupy that space. and if that something ends and there is nothing after that, then that is even more space. the likely scenario is that eventually you will reach a point where there is no matter existing what so ever, not even light, energy or gravity. but that is empty space. there is going to be a point where there is nothing more, just nothing. more nothing than can even be measured in either space or time, we simply do not have the range of numbers to count it. not even our greatest number to the power of that greatest number would even register as a tiny fraction of it. but its still space, just infinite unmeasurable space. as humans we are used to the concept of living in a limited measurable non-infinite world, so the concept of never ending space is a concept that is kinda hard for us to grasp, but that doesn't mean that's not how it is, just because its a little beyond our imagination.
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2017-07-06 at 6:43 AM UTC
Originally posted by NARCassist no its not the same. you can conclude that space is infinite because if there is nothing beyond the known universe, then nothing is still just space, never ending space. if there is something beyond that, then that something must occupy that space. and if that something ends and there is nothing after that, then that is even more space. the likely scenario is that eventually you will reach a point where there is no matter existing what so ever, not even light, energy or gravity. but that is empty space. there is going to be a point where there is nothing more, just nothing. more nothing than can even be measured in either space or time, we simply do not have the range of numbers to count it. not even our greatest number to the power of that greatest number would even register as a tiny fraction of it. but its still space, just infinite unmeasurable space. as humans we are used to the concept of living in a limited measurable non-infinite world, so the concept of never ending space is a concept that is kinda hard for us to grasp, but that doesn't mean that's not how it is, just because its a little beyond our imagination.
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the thing is that we DONT KNOW for sure that theres nothing beyond what can see.
maybe theres a brick wall over there, one foot and one milisecond older than all the lights we'ver seen.
just maybe. -
2017-07-06 at 6:49 AM UTC
Originally posted by benny vader the thing is that we DONT KNOW for sure that theres nothing beyond what can see.
maybe theres a brick wall over there, one foot and one milisecond older than all the lights we'ver seen.
just maybe.
if there was solid matter that went on forever then that matter is occupying space. space that goes on forever. if there is no matter, then that is also space, that goes on forever. either way space continues forever. i know this is very difficult for our minds to comprehend. even tho i know this fact, i still find it very difficult to picture how space can just continue non stop, ever. our minds are hard-wired to function in a finite world.
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2017-07-06 at 7:06 AM UTC
Originally posted by NARCassist if there was solid matter that went on forever then that matter is occupying space. space that goes on forever. if there is no matter, then that is also space, that goes on forever. either way space continues forever. i know this is very difficult for our minds to comprehend. even tho i know this fact, i still find it very difficult to picture how space can just continue non stop, ever. our minds are hard-wired to function in a finite world.
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lets say we see a brick wall at the end of the universe.
what would you assume to be behind that wall ?? -
2017-07-06 at 7:09 AM UTC
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2017-07-06 at 7:39 AM UTC
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2017-07-06 at 11:42 AM UTC
Originally posted by NARCassist no its not the same. you can conclude that space is infinite because if there is nothing beyond the known universe, then nothing is still just space, never ending space. if there is something beyond that, then that something must occupy that space. and if that something ends and there is nothing after that, then that is even more space. the likely scenario is that eventually you will reach a point where there is no matter existing what so ever, not even light, energy or gravity. but that is empty space. there is going to be a point where there is nothing more, just nothing. more nothing than can even be measured in either space or time, we simply do not have the range of numbers to count it. not even our greatest number to the power of that greatest number would even register as a tiny fraction of it. but its still space, just infinite unmeasurable space. as humans we are used to the concept of living in a limited measurable non-infinite world, so the concept of never ending space is a concept that is kinda hard for us to grasp, but that doesn't mean that's not how it is, just because its a little beyond our imagination.
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There is no reason to believe there is "space" "beyond" the universe. Space, or space-time is a "thing". Depending on the shape of the universe, it is probably closed and finite.
