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Posts by Obbe
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2018-01-25 at 11:06 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon What is this free will that you think is an incoherent idea? What does that mean?
Free will is the illusion that our choices are not the product of causal chains, but are significantly free or undetermined. People generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions, they feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past, and that feeling is called free will. -
2018-01-25 at 11:05 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by mmQ So obbe, do you think we should be held accountable for our actions?
I don't think society accepting that individuals lack free will would really change much about how society deals with criminals. Whether or not we have free will is a topic I find interesting but it's not really that important, we are still living the same life doing the same things either way. If someone is a psychopathic murderer, they should probably be separated from the rest of the population.
But I do think this realization could help society. Once we understand the root causes of behaviors we find criminal or immoral that understanding could be used to help us to create a better society moving forward. -
2018-01-25 at 10:50 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Your entire argument is built off having no definition and asserting, with no evidence or reasoning, that the problem of free will is something no intellectual discussion of free will has ever revolved around i.e. a magic idea of being magic.
No it is not. Free will is an incoherent idea, period. People generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions, they feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past, and that feeling is called free will. Free will is the illusion that our choices are not the product of causal chains, but are significantly free or undetermined.
You are not talking about free will. You are talking about freedom to exert your will. Different topics, you're just re-labeling yours as free will. -
2018-01-25 at 9:39 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Yeah, I'm not doing this any more with you. Every time you get stumped by an argument and don't have something to steal a response from, rather than re-evaluating where your point starts, you just repeat the same thing over and over. I'm not aútistic enough to do this ad infinitum with you.
That's fine, we actually seem to agree about how this all works except you just define free will in a stupid way that doesn't acknowledge the problem of free will. -
2018-01-25 at 7:17 PM UTC in Do rainbows exist objectively?This thread wasn't really about rainbows.
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2018-01-25 at 1:48 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Of course it is.
No it is not, people generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions. They feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past. That feeling is called free will.
You are not talking about free will. You are talking about freedom to exert your will. Different topics, you're just re-labeling yours as free will.
I don't know why you continue to bring up agency. Agency is distinct from the concept of free will, the philosophical doctrine that our choices are not the product of causal chains, but are significantly free or undetermined. Human agency entails the claim that humans do in fact make decisions and enact them on the world. How humans come to make decisions, by free choice or other processes, is another issue. -
2018-01-25 at 2:20 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-24 at 11:32 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon That's exactly what people mean when they say they have free will because someone can both agree that things are predetermined but still believe they have agency. The freedom to exert your will is exactly what they mean, not the freedom to will what they will.
That is not what people mean when they say they have free will. People generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions. They feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past. That feeling is called free will.
You are not talking about free will. You are talking about freedom to exert your will. Different topics, you're just re-labeling yours as free will.
I don't know why you continue to bring up agency. -
2018-01-24 at 11:04 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-24 at 10:58 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
To put it even more simply: when we talk about "free will", we are talking about "freedom of will"
Wrong. Those are different topics. When people claim they have free will, they claim to be the conscious source of their thoughts and actions. They believe they could have acted differently than they did in the past. -
2018-01-24 at 10:55 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon The typical conception of free will is not a one-ended system outside of causality, it is one where you can have agency despite predetermination.
That is not what people mean when they say they have free will. People generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions. They feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past. That feeling is called free will.
You are not talking about free will. You are talking about freedom to exert your will. Different topics, you're just re-labeling yours as free will.
I never mentioned anything about agency, I don't know why you keep brining it up. -
2018-01-24 at 8:54 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Now you have to attack why it is not valid to say that someone has free will if they are able to fulfill their motive or predisposition without constraint or compulsion by another agent.
We've been over this. That is not what people mean when they say they have free will. People generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions. They feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past. That feeling is called free will. The problem is that you and I both know that a person is not the conscious source of their thoughts and actions. They could not have acted differently than they did in the past.
You are not talking about free will. You are talking about freedom to exert your will. Different topics, you're just re-labeling yours as free will. -
2018-01-24 at 7:21 PM UTC in How do you flirt with women?Pull her hair.
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2018-01-24 at 7:19 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon You "keep" being retarded and not understanding the contention of compatibilism, which is that we are in fact a meat computer but that doesn't prevent us from taking responsibility for our actions/have agency. I say "keep" because I've already addressed this at least a dozen times. I can't really do anything if you refuse to grasp basic English.
I'll use the simplest possible words to put this as a syllogism:
1. If you want to do something and
2. Someone else's wants don't stop you from doing something or make you do something then
3. You are free
Right except that just ignores the problem of free will, that people feel like the conscious source of their thoughts desires and actions, and changes the topic from "free will" to "the freedom to do what you will." -
2018-01-24 at 7:06 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon People generally would agree that they are a product of some combination of their genetics and their environment/upbringing but still contend that they have agency.
Even if a person considers themself to "have agency", they still are not the conscious source of their thoughts and actions. They could not have had acted differently than they did in the past. Therefore they do not have the free will that they feel they do. -
2018-01-24 at 4:34 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alivePeople generally feel like they are the conscious source of all their thoughts and actions. They feel like they could have acted differently than they did in the past. That feeling is called free will. The problem is that you and I both know that a person is not the conscious source of their thoughts and actions. They could not have acted differently than they did in the past.
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2018-01-24 at 12:19 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by mmQ Hey obbe just for clarification are you strictly a hard determinist or are you some other variant that I'm too dumb to recognize.
Mind you, I just now actually looked some of this shit up to see if what I've been saying is completely full of shit or what. None of this is anything I've previously looked into before other than briefly determinism and compatibalism which I as of this point decided was probably the closest to aligning with what I formed as an opinion without previous knowledge of the strict terms and definitions .
I wouldn't call myself a hard determinist. I just think free will is incompatible with a deterministic, probabilistic or random universe - or any combination. Compatibilism changes the meaning of free will, which I think is stupid because it just changes the topic and ignores the classical "problem of freewill" which is the entire point of discussions like this. -
2018-01-24 at 3:33 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while aliveSure they are.
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2018-01-24 at 3:18 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-24 at 3:06 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
