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Posts by Obbe
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2018-01-26 at 11:15 PM UTC in The Retarded Thread: Get Rekt, Faggot!
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2018-01-26 at 7:15 PM UTC in Treat your members with respect
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2018-01-26 at 4:37 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon The word you are looking for and disingenuously trying to misrepresent is…?
I don't know why you continue to bring up agency. Agency is distinct from the concept of free will. Human agency entails the claim that humans do in fact make decisions and enact them on the world. How humans come to make decisions, by free choice or other processes, is another issue.
Humans can have agency, but our wills are still either determined and we are not responsible for them or they are random and we are not responsible for them. A qrng does not have free will either, it does not have a will in any sense relative the problem of free will humans are faced with. -
2018-01-26 at 12:56 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by mmQ I wonder where the concept of belief comes from in the first place. If we're all just vessels that are being used to transport this ongoing highway of beliefs that aren't ours, what is the meaning behind it and who started it? Do you think there was a first something that had free will and then everything after that has been just a product of that? Why is there all this thinking and doing and learning and wondering to begin with, and why should it have any role of importance toward anything if nobody can ever act on that or do something useful with it since it's all predetermined anyway?
I try not to think about it too much and enjoy the ride.
When I say it's you I like, I'm talking about that part of you that knows that life is far more than anything you can ever see or hear or touch. That deep part of you that allows you to stand for those things without which humankind cannot survive. Love that conquers hate, peace that rises triumphant over war, and justice that proves more powerful than greed.
As human beings, our job in life is to help people realize how rare and valuable each one of us really is, that each of us has something that no one else has—or ever will have—something inside that is unique to all time. It's our job to encourage each other to discover that uniqueness and to provide ways of developing its expression. -
2018-01-26 at 12:47 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Obbe has will failed to address why his definition is not fulfilled by a QRNG.
A QRNG experiences no illusion of free will. It does not feel that it is the conscious source of its thoughts or actions. It has no will whatsoever. It may be "free" in the sense that it generates something randomly, but has nothing to do with the problem of free will that human beings are faced with. -
2018-01-26 at 12:40 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-26 at 12:33 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while aliveIf your brain makes a decision before you're even aware you are making a decision you're not the conscious source of that decision and that decision is no more an example of free will than developing a heart disorder would be.
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2018-01-26 at 12:11 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by NARCassist I don't believe you
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The cool thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not.
https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.htmlYour brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.
The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time. -
2018-01-26 at 12:07 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by mmQ I can't be anything I want to be according to you. :(
Also isn't that common sense? Of course my beliefs are caused from outside influence. The difference is I equate them to still being mine, personal to me, unique and attributed to the brain and person of who I am.
Of course they are still yours, you just aren't the conscious source of them. You've made this day a special day, by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you; and I like you just the way you are. But you are no more responsible for who you are than you're responsible for your genes or upbringing or neural activity. -
2018-01-26 at 4:51 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by mmQ So if you're "correct" , if that's even possible with your stance, and I am incorrect in believing that I have shaped my beliefs myself based on my understanding and interpretation of my surroundings, would it be fair to say that you got lucky, in the sense that you were predetermined to believe the correct belief regarding free will (or the lack thereof)?
It sounds to me like you're saying "I believe that nothing I believe is my belief."
Do you think about what you're going to think about before you think it? Are you able to defy physics? If you answered no to these questions, it follows that all your thoughts and behaviors and intentions are caused by events you did not intend or influence.
You too can be so lucky mmQ. -
2018-01-26 at 4:10 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by NARCassist obbe, why are you bothering to have/partake in this discussion? when according to your theory there is absolutely no point or reason for partaking in discussing anything. what is the point in humans developing language and forms of communication in the first place? it makes zero sense, you fucking imbecile(not my actual thoughts). the best i can fathom of your theory is that you're pretty much saying the entire human race suffers with some kind of tourettes syndrome.
its like think about it tho. if i had an opinion on something, but you're saying that i'm not thinking that, so that's not really my opinion. then that means my opinion on the matter is something else/not that. which means i still have an opinion. even if i don't know what my opinion is on something, i will still have an opinion about it. so if i have an opinion, then i have free will/thought.
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Nothing does matter in the grand scheme of things. I just think this is an interesting topic.
All your opinions, intentions and beliefs are caused by events you have no influence over.
So it goes. -
2018-01-26 at 4:07 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon You not grasping the English language doesn't makes the point invalid. Let's say that all actions up until the point where you looked at a QRNG are predetermined ass the falling of the dominoes of fate. Whatever you do after you look at the QRNG will now factor in something completely causally unconnected to anything that happened before it. No matter how small it is, on some level you are now beyond prediction by any system, regardless of the level of information it has, prior to you seeing the result of the QRNG. You don't even need to use the QRNG to make a choice. It's simply the start of a new causal chain.
:Rofl_Roll_Yellow_3b:
Nothing about that would demonstarte free will. Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them. Even when you look at a qrng everything prior to, following, and including that random event is a still chain of events that you have no influence over. This scenario has nothing to do with you having free will.
Originally posted by Captain Falcon More importantly, it perfectly fits your definition of free will. Why does it not? What's missing from a QRNG that makes it "not free will"?
A QRNG experiences no illusion of free will. It does not feel that it is the conscious source of its thoughts or actions. It has no will whatsoever. It may be "free" in the sense that it generates something randomly, but has nothing to do with the problem of free will that human beings are faced with. -
2018-01-26 at 2:44 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Even merely by looking at a random number generator, you affect your neurology and alter the chain of causality by something outside of causality. There is no reason to believe "science" can predict your decisions after you look at the QRNG, from prior to looking at it.
You wouldn't "alter" anything. You are either going to use the rng pick a random option for you, or you won't. Whether you choose to or not can be predicted by science. Whatever the rng generates, that isn't a demonstration of your free will. -
2018-01-26 at 1:21 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by NARCassist so just to clarify, your stance is that no criminal is responsible for their behavior and the judges have no right to punish them? would that be correct obbe?
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Nobody is truly responsible for their actions but I still think that if their actions are criminal or "evil" then they should be met with reasonable justice and that society should seek to remedy the root causes of such behavior. -
2018-01-26 at 1:17 AM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-25 at 11:28 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Why? A choice made from a QRNG is not a product of prior causal change, and are undetermined. It fits your definition exactly.
Because it's random. I don't understand how you could attribute your will or your sense of self to randomness. Imagine if all your actions, intentions beliefs and desires were generated randomly. If your "free will" was due to truly random events wouldn't you behave in an unpredictable and erratic way? You would scarcely seem to have a mind at all. You would live as if you were blown about by the wind. Actions, intentions, beliefs and desires can exist only in a system that is significantly constrained by patterns of behavior and the laws of stimulus-response. While I agree that the universe is not entirely deterministic, it is in every sense relevant to human behavior. -
2018-01-25 at 11:22 PM UTC in Do rainbows exist objectively?
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2018-01-25 at 11:21 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-25 at 11:08 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-25 at 11:08 PM UTC in Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
Originally posted by NARCassist i dunno if maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're getting at exactly coz you obviously high as fuck. but is the jist of it that no one is basically responsible for our thoughts? coz that would equal no one being responsible for their actions. in that case we shouldn't be having laws and punishments. i mean what do those judges think they're doing putting people in prison and even executing people for doing things that wasn't their fault? i mean, what a fucking diabolical liberty those sick fuckers are taking or what?
ya get me fam?
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What does it mean to take moral responsibility for an action? Consider the following:
1. A 4 year old kills a woman after playing with his father's gun, which had been left loaded and unsecure.
2. A 25 year old man raised by wonderful parents and never abused intentionally shot and killed a woman "for the fun of it."
3. A 25 year old man raised by wonderful parents and never abused intentionally shot and killed a woman "for the fun of it." A brain scan reveals a tumor the size of a golf ball in a region of his brain responsible for the control of emotion and behavioral impulses.
In each case a young woman died. Each death, the result of events arising in the mind of another human. But the degree of moral outrage you feel probably depends on the situation described in each case.
We consider the brain of killer 1 is not fully matured or ready for the responsibilities of personhood. Killer number 2 appears to be a psychopath. Killer number 3 involves the same psychopathic motive and behavior, but somehow the brain tumor seems to clear the killer of all responsibility for his crime. We cannot help but see him as a victim of his own biology.
Despite our attachment to the notion of freewill most of us know that disorders of the brain trump the best intentions of the mind. And the men and women on death row have some combination of bad genes, bad parents, bad environments and bad luck. Which of these were they responsible for? No person is responsible for his genes or upbringing, yet we have every reason to believe these factors determine his character. In fact, it seems immoral not to recognize how much luck is involved in morality itself.
Imagine if we discover a cure for evil. Imagine every relevant change in any individuals brain could be made cheaply, painlessly and safely. Imagine if the cure could be put into the food supply, like a vitamin… evil would become nothing more than a nutritional deficiency.
To say that someone freely chose to squander their life savings at a poker table is to say he had every opportunity to do otherwise and that nothing about what he did was inadvertent. He did not play poker by accident or while in the grip of a delusion. He played because he wanted to, intended to and decided to, over and over. Most of the time it makes sense to just ignore the deeper causes of desires and intentions, like genes, synatipic potentials etc. We do this because it's easier to organize our thoughts and actions. Why did I drink water instead of beer? Because I desired water. Why did I desire water? I don't know, but generally I don't bother asking. Knowing that I want water is all I ever need to know to function in this world. Whatever the reason I prefered one option over the other. Is there freedom in this? None whatsoever. Would I magically reclaim my freedom if I suddenly decided to spite my desire and drink beer instead of water? No, because the roots of such an intention would be as obscure as the desire itself.
