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Posts by Obbe
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2018-05-08 at 12:45 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by mmQ No I know that I was just curious. It's probably a good thing to know if you even if think it's possible in any case whatsoever. I guess for the sake of extremes I'll say something like do you think torturing babies is ever morally acceptable?
It's not something I would do but I don't speak for everyone. Don't some creatures eat their babies? -
2018-05-08 at 12:39 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick I can't prove a moral obligation to someone who doesn't believe they have any moral obligations. I'm not going to fit a whole thread's worth of discussion on moral absolutism a the 1,200-end of a thread about animal rights, you can eat that red herring by yourself. If you don't want to talk about animals, Obbe, I'm not going to argue with you. I've made all the points you're asking for and a dozen beyond that, you have selective memory. You've got a really weird way of debating that tends to drive people crazy and I don't intend to follow them. Good luck.
That's like saying you can't prove morality is relative to someone who believes their morals are absolute. It's a cop out, and then you act as if somehow I'm "prohibiting" discussion while you actively refuse to participate in one. I tried to discuss morality with you earlier and you just hand-waved it away, like you are attempting to do now, as if somehow discussing it "stains" this thread. As if everything you've constructed would fall apart like a sand castle during high tide, and maybe the reason you don't want to discuss it is because deep down you know that it is true, morality is relative and nobody has any sort of obligation to adopt your personal preferences. I'm not saying you shouldn't be a vegan or that there are no other premises upon which you can build your argument. If anything I'm actually helping you out by showing you that this is not the right way to argue your position. -
2018-05-07 at 11:14 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
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2018-05-07 at 10:56 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick This is possibly one of my favorite arguments against vegetarianism, and it's a very important weakness in the platform. There are villages in impoverished regions where they're lucky to get eggs, and my response to that problem is that these are marginal cases, which is to say that they make up a small minority and they ought to be permitted as we focus our efforts on transgressions of a higher priority. Factory farming in the US has no such justification, and if that's all animal rights activists focus on eradicating over the next ten years for animal rights progress, we'll have our work cut out for us.
I've said about a million different ways why you're morally obligated and your only defense is "well, I'm not convinced, so you must be wrong". It's not a debate when you do that, you can deny things all day and it won't be a debate. You started out very well in this post, Obbe.
Your argument is built on a false premise, and the whole house of cards falls apart if the base cannot handle the load placed upon it. I don't believe your preferences apply to anyone other than you and see no reason why they should. You have never even attempted to explain why you think your preferences should apply to everyone else.
Like I said before, if you started your argument by saying something like "this is why I don't eat meat," or "factory farming is unsustainable," or even something like "these are the health benefits of a vegetarian diet," at least those are real arguments worth considering. But your whole "moral obligation" idea is pretty much just you telling us that you're convinced of this and that if we disagree with you we're just wrong. It's not a debate when you do that. Tell us why you believe morality is not relative, and maybe this can actually go somewhere. -
2018-05-07 at 10:24 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick Not eating meat isn't a ritual, it's a principle. It's measured in the number of animals who don't die for the purpose of consumption. If you care about suffering, this is a very important metric to use and it has real-world value, unlike your best wishes for the consumed.
I'm not addressing your nihilism, it's a refuge from a failing argument and it's prohibitive to discussion.
Morality is a luxury not everyone can partake in. Most people are too hungry to consider or even care where their next meal comes from. Some lucky individuals do have the ability to follow their desires and preferences, to eat what they want. Some people prefer to eat meat, and some people prefer not to. Some people feel that certain behaviors are moral and some are immoral. But morality doesn't seem to extend beyond the scope of their feelings, beyond their subjective perspective and into the real world we all share together. You may prefer to not eat meat and that is fine, but thus far all you have demonstrated is that you have this preference and not that anyone else has an obligation to adopt it. Morality is simply your refuge from a failing argument, and your inability to demonstrate any real moral obligation ends this discussion before it can even begin. -
2018-05-07 at 7 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick It really doesn't:
Suffering doesn't factor into that equation. You mentioned that plants might potentially suffer (without offering evidence) but you quickly abandoned this by saying that it doesn't matter what life we eat. Whichever you really think it is, it's immaterial to your position once you "thank" them for their "sacrifice". That's a nice ritual but practically speaking, it's meaningless. We need real advocacy for real organisms, not killing and gratitude. If you think plants are morally complex and you care about their suffering, I would urge you to stop eating them. If you'd rather say "thank you" and call it square, they conveniently won't be around to disagree.
What's your point? Choosing to not eat meat is a nice ritual but ultimately it is meaningless. Some people prefer to eat meat, some people prefer not to eat meat, either way it doesn't really matter. -
2018-05-07 at 5:54 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meatI didn't say anything about ethics. My argument does consider suffering, it considers the suffering of all life forms. You can eat people if you want, just know that every action has consequences.
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2018-05-07 at 3:42 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick Well, suppose that I do want to eat a person. I'd give thanks for their noble sacrifice, and I'd use every part of the carcass so that they won't have died in vain. As long as I keep it quiet that I've done this, I wouldn't suffer at all by your reasoning. Unless you think there are additional criteria I ought to consider, I don't see why this would be any different from eating a tomato from my garden.
It isn't illegal to eat a tomato from your garden. Anyway, I thought you were more concerned with the suffering of the life you're consuming not the one you are sustaining. I find it hard to believe you would eat a person if you can't even eat a chicken. -
2018-05-07 at 3:38 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Zanick I think so, but you offered a justification that makes eating meat a karma-free activity when you express thanks to the animal, which is then considered a sacrifice. If this absolves you of the need to worry about the circumstances of the creature's life and death, why not eat humans?
I have no desire to do that. -
2018-05-07 at 3:33 AM UTC in OG Tosteans... come here... I want to meet you!
Originally posted by -mal- Hello! Please tell me more about yourself and your memories of Totse.
I don't remember anything specific really, just that I thought it was something really cool and mind opening when I was 13, like stumbling upon some hidden community of keepers of secret knowledge and that it was a formative experience, I know I wouldn't be the same person if I never found it. -
2018-05-07 at 3:27 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
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2018-05-06 at 7:21 PM UTC in OG Tosteans... come here... I want to meet you!Hello!
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2018-05-06 at 4:37 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by aldra I've never seen any good evidence for 'consciousness' in plants
sure they'll grow toward sunlight or away from harm but that only indicates very low order logic, direct response to stimuli
I made a thread about plant intelligence/consciousness full of links to actual research on the topic, plus a documentary if you're interested in it. -
2018-05-06 at 4:33 PM UTC in What are you doing at the momentJust about to rip the bong and then play some Links Awakening on my gameboy colour while I wait for my fake Chinese gameboys to arrive in the mail. Probably have to wait a few more weeks before I can review them.
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2018-05-06 at 4:31 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meatSaw this posted on a similar topic on Reddit, thought I should share it here:
Just because plants have lower awareness than animals doesn't mean plants have no consciousness at all and do not suffer when killed for food.
Since all life is sacred (plant and animal), spiritually it doesn't matter what life forms we consume in order to survive and thrive in the physical universe. Spiritually what matters is the manner in which we take those lives.
I think the Native American Indians are a good spiritual example to follow for this. Before they ate anything, they gave thanks to the spirit of that animal:
"Thank-you for giving your life so that I may live."
Doing so makes eating any life form (plant or animal) a karma-less act. So veganism doesn't promote spiritual awakening any more than eating meat does. It's the attitude that counts. -
2018-05-05 at 2:52 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating plants
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2018-05-05 at 2:37 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating plants
Originally posted by Zanick … Obbe already made this thread and brought up the subject for several pages in my other thread.
No I didn't.
I made a thread about plant intelligence, but that thread had nothing to do with morality or eating plants.
I also made reference to plant intelligence in your thread about two or maybe 3 times but I also stopped talking about it as soon as you asked me to. -
2018-05-04 at 11:44 AM UTC in Terence McKenna was right
Originally posted by Daily Did you really think you could sneak your degeneracy into a question of demography and somebody with an iq of one and a half standard deviations above the average wouldn't notice
Incels have always existed, it's nothing new. There's probably more of them now because women have been granted absolute control over their reproduction. Why would they go near Obbe
In sexual economics, sperm is cheap (a guy can fuck and cum inside hundreds of women in 9 months) while eggs are expensive (a woman will shit out just one or two kids and rarely more than that in 9 months). Since it's such a big investment for women, they have to be choosy. Males have always been biologically disposable in the evolutionary timeline
We are simply witnessing these disposable organisms communicate their anxiety, shame, resentment and depression, sometimes through forums, sometimes through vlogs, sometimes through shootings
Why do you think I'm an incel? -
2018-05-03 at 10:19 PM UTC in The Retardest Thread: Fashionably Late Edition.
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2018-05-03 at 5:15 AM UTC in What are your primary motivations in life?I imagine it's mostly subconscious drives and instincts and processes beyond my control.
