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Posts by Obbe
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2018-06-25 at 11:42 AM UTC in The Retarded Thread: Sploo Needs AttentionBless your hearts
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2018-06-24 at 11:53 PM UTC in The Retarded Thread: Sploo Needs Attention
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2018-06-24 at 9:56 PM UTC in The Retarded Thread: Sploo Needs Attention
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2018-06-22 at 10:28 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Lanny I obviously don't consider either more morally considerable than myself, as evidenced by my not starving to death for the benefit of plants or lower animals. The situation was a hypothetical where we have some reason to believe that they are more morally considerable than us, which like I said, seems far fetched.
No, the hypothetical situation was that these lifeforms were capable of experiencing "well being" and "suffering". I never mentioned anything about these lifeforms being more morally considerable than us. However you did state that if these lifeforms were found to be capable of an equal "depth of feeling" as animals, that you would feel obligated to die rather than eat them. Doesn't that mean you would consider these lifeforms to be more morally considerable than your own self, so much so that you would give your own life for the sake of their lives?
That seems strange to me. I also don't believe it. I do believe that if you were starving you would eat these hypothetical lifeforms, and I believe you would eat meat if you were starving, too. If you were starving and all that was available was murdered chickens I do believe you would eat those chickens, morality be damned.
Originally posted by Lanny In short yes, it would matter. Do you understand how the is/ought distinction works?
I guess not. I don't think it would really matter at all. If a superior being came to Earth to experiment on us and didn't care about how immoral we thought the experiment was, it wouldn't matter how immoral we thought it was, it would happen no matter what we thought. And as far as we know, maybe the alien is experimenting on us for reasons that would excuse any perceived immorality if only we could comprehend it!
So anyway, why do you believe it would be absolutely wrong because some humans believe it would be wrong? -
2018-06-22 at 9:56 PM UTC in bundy causing weeklong hangovers
Originally posted by Glokula's Homabla i used a gram+ of bundy every day for 6 months. after going through absolutely terrible withdrawals that lasted for like a year, now every time i take bundy i feel terrible for days. probably something akin to the kindling effect in alcoholics where every withdrawal/hangover gets worse permanently. now i never do it anymore because its not worth the aftereffects. the longest hangover i had from bundy was when i took something like 2700mg of bundy after grams of T-PAIN and phenibut. i was hungover as fuck for like 8 days and thought it was never going to end. i woke up each of those days still tripping it was scary
Do you regret it? -
2018-06-22 at 6:15 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Lanny I didn't really compare animal husbandry to genocide, I compared your justification for eating morally considerable things (i.e. if I don't do it, someone else will) to an argument justifying genocide.
The same justification I offer for why we save people from burning buildings before animals or why hospitals are more heavily invested in than veterinary clinics and why we don't have rock-hospitals: we are interested in, and our moral obligation lies in, protecting things in proportion to how morally considerable they are. I think we're the most morally considerable things around, but if we're not then our moral obligation doesn't change, our interests just stop being the most important kind.
Yes, I obviously would think it matters because we are morally considerable, regardless of the opinions of another species. Just as animals are morally considerable, even if many people don't think they are.
My argument is that it doesn't really matter at all.
You must consider animals (and possibly plants) to be more morally considerable than your own self if you would truly be willing to die instead of eating them.
It might matter to humans, but if it doesn't matter to the aliens does it really matter? Wouldn't they do what they are going to do because they are superior beings? You might believe they are wrong but would that belief matter? -
2018-06-22 at 2:32 AM UTC in The letter zed
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2018-06-21 at 11:36 PM UTC in The Retarded Thread: Sploo Needs Attention
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2018-06-21 at 10:07 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Lanny It's a practical approach. As you saw, I'm perfectly willing to consider consciousness and moral considerability that extends beyond humans an animals and doing so doesn't really pose any problems. But at the end of the day I need to choose what I'm going to eat for dinner and all I can act on is the best information available to be, which suggests that plants do not have the necessary mental attributes to suffer as a result of me eating them while animals do.
I don't think I've used the term "evil" in this thread. If we harmed morally considerable things, even out of ignorance, we'd be doing something wrong. "Evil" is a pretty loaded term.
I don't think we have any compelling evidence to justify that belief.
The same argument has been used for justification of just about anything. "If I don't participate in the local genocide someone else probably will, so it's A-OK to murder this family", and hey, the guy who says that is probably right on the first part at least.
I don't see how animal husbandry is comparable to genocide.
What is your justification for your belief that we would have an obligation to die if it turns out we are causing life forms to suffer by eating plants?
If an advanced intelligence was farming us and didn't consider us to be morally considerable do you think it would matter? -
2018-06-21 at 9:59 PM UTC in What was your most recent bodily injury?I had a metal sliver in my finger and dug it out with a very sharp knife.
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2018-06-21 at 6:31 PM UTC in how to talk some shit
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2018-06-21 at 6:22 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Lanny I'm not. People who argue plants have hedonic faculties generally state in the general form of "plants can react to stimulus, so they must be able to feel pain!" which I think is a really flimsy argument. In general I think this is a camp that takes some real and interesting findings in biology and draws wholly invalid conclusions from them. But Obbe did put it in the most interesting way the question can be framed, as a hypothetical.
So if we found that all life is capable of well being or suffering, which I've put forward as the criterion for moral considerability, then we need to ask what the distribution and degree of considerability is among species. If plants have a very slight hedonic faculty but humans a much greater one, then it may be justifiable to inflict the amount of suffering required for our well being on plants. For what it's worth I think this argument applies to animals too: the lives of humans are certainly more considerable than those of chickens and I would never say that a starving person is doing something wrong for eating a chicken, it's simply that when we have a choice between eating an animal, which is somewhat less morally considerable than us, and a plant, which I think is totally morally unconsiderable, then we do something wrong by harming the animal.
So what if plants end being capable the same or greater depth of feeling than animals? I think the situation is really pretty far fetched, but if it was the case then I guess most of us would be obligated to die since I doubt we could sustain a very large population on fruit or whatever other sources of calories are available to us without killing anything.
Lol, you're the one dodging my questions buddy
That's possibly just a human-centric or animal-centric approach to morality / consumption.
Imagine if we stumbled on a form of alien life that we didn't even recognize as life but was actually intelligent and felt pain from our experiments while we didn't even realize it. Would that make us evil? Or imagine if something with super-human intelligence stumbled upon us and saw us as just another resource to exploit ... maybe come back to Earth every 10000 years to harvest new organisms, ideas, technologies. Just another experiment. Maybe it wouldn't even consider "suffering" to be something to be concerned about. Is that really evil? Or is it only evil 'to us'?
I guess my point is that I don't believe we have any obligation to die for the sake of some other form of life. And I do believe that eventually science will recognize that all forms of life, even plants, are intelligent to some degree and can suffer to some degree, and if your response to that is suicide I don't think that's going to achieve anything except people like me will still be here living life while people like you won't be. -
2018-06-21 at 3:32 PM UTC in I'm still alive and kickin' unfortunately... I'm now in the most ghetto nursing home in the world.
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2018-06-21 at 12:34 PM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
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2018-06-21 at 11:31 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
Originally posted by Lanny something something universal grammar some anarcho syndicalism
I do think it's ok to eat plants and that plants, to the best of our knowledge, are not morally considerable. The reason they're not morally considerable and some animals are is not because I choose which things are and aren't morally considerably, but rather because morally considerable things have the ability to experience well being or suffering while plants don't seem to.
More and more research shows that plants are intelligent, can sense touch, react when they are damaged, etc... If sometime in the future it is revealed to you that all forms of life can experience well being and suffering, will you still eat food? -
2018-06-20 at 11:53 PM UTC in "Hey mom what are you doing?"Who was it?
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2018-06-20 at 11:10 AM UTC in We have a moral obligation to stop eating meat
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2018-06-20 at 11:05 AM UTC in ATTN: Ghost
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2018-06-20 at 12:08 AM UTC in Lonely... lonely... lonely... lonely... lonely...
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2018-06-20 at 12:01 AM UTC in ATTN: Ghost
If you feel a thread is being derailed you are encouraged to PM me or report the offending posts and I will moderate that thread more actively. This means the kind of posting that flies in one thread may not in another, or more minor off-topic posting that's acceptable earlier in a thread will not be acceptable later.
What I ask from posters is that they respect that not every thread will have the same level of moderation and that they help me in finding threads that are being derailed.
https://niggasin.space/page/about
