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2018-10-25 at 5:38 AM UTC in How do I claw my way our of the epistemological void I find myself in?
Originally posted by Anal Turing The idea is simply that the observer isn't some unitary "bottom level" that experiences are delivered to, rather it is a phenomenon that emerges from and supervenes on unconscious phenomena, of which experiences and thoughts are a few.
OK, I'm not sure this is really an well agreed upon fact but I would seem to agree. I'm not sure how that leads to:"You" aren't "using" your thoughts, "you" are just the "narrative center of gravity" for your thoughts (as Dan Dennett puts it).
Why am I not my thoughts? And if I really am not my my thoughts then I can still defend Descartes by saying "well the cogito isn't "me", it's my thoughts".
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Descartes would be very bothered, because the idea he is battling is that his thoughts and experiences could be a misrepresentation being "presented" to "him". Descartes was an interactionist who believed that the soul interacted with the body through the pineal gland, and the body was just syntactical machinery for the mind to manipulate.
Descartes is an interactionist but his interactionism doesn't really have anything to do with the cogito, he didn't suppose the mechanism of deception was the presentation of false experience to his soul directly or anything. He's not committed to his soul being him, at least for the purposes of meditations. If a contemporary had made this argument, and he was willing to entertain the thought-without-self idea (still not really clear to me) he could just say "look at that thought, even you agree that thought exists, that's the cogito".The whole problem of the evil demon hinges on a notion of an essential identity of experience. Simply accepting that the thoughts are what there are, leaves no problem: if an evil scientist is constructing these thoughts in a jar, there is no "essence" to pull out into the real world and give real thoughts to, any continuity between them would just be the persistence of a "ship of Theseus" blob of mental and physical states which are interrelated and form some kind of collective identity, none of which are at all essential.
Descartes does seem to have believed in an "essential" soul, but again, I'm not seeing how it's critical to cogito ergo sum. If you subscribe to an error theory of personal identity or something you still seem to have very good evidence for at least one of some kind of (maybe) transient (maybe) non-essential thinking being, and that's all that's required here.If "you" are just constructed out of your experiences, then there is no reason to doubt the validity of your experiences to you.
Descartes wasn't doubting the "validity of your experiences to you", he doubted that they represented some kind of external reality. He'd probably say all our experiences are "valid" to us in that we truly experience them.Imagine if the evil scientist pulls Descartes out of a vat and retains all his memories except he changes the memory of his name in the real world to "Rene Detrolley". Is Descartes or Detrolley having the experience of being lied to about being the other?
Well so see above for why I don't think a rejection of personal identity or personal essentialism really poses a problem, but I think this thought experiment fails long before that because even very naive accounts of identity don't rely on names as our essential quality.The fact that your experience isn't happening at some central location in your head, it is distributed throughout your body, and actually felt and experienced in your limbs. The head fallacy is a very easy mistake to make because our eyes and ears are in there, and both are central to determining our position in the world.
I'd argue experience doesn't really happen anywhere. Like sure, we have a sense of locality, like we experience touch as being local to some region of our model of the world, specifically the part we occupy (usually) and that's super interesting but I'd say you're wrong if you point to a limb and say "look there, an experience!", or if you pointed to a head and said the same thing. Asking "where is this experience happening" is a bit like asking "where is mathematics" or "where is Descartes' Meditations". I could point to a number of books or websites or brains that instantiate those things in some way, but it would be comical to pick up one and be like "look, here, this is mathematics. Mathematics weighs 1.2 lbs and is made mostly out of dead trees".
Experience very likely relies (supervenes) on material substance which does have a location and volume and other physical properties but that doesn't mean experience itself is local.That road leads to what is known as the homunculus fallacy, i.e. it simply transposes the question of how you perceive things and weave these threads together, onto how the little observer in your head does it. They are the same question. Does he have a little observer in his head?
There is no need to reach for such silliness because the premise is just pointless and flawed: to experience sight is to experience sight, you don't need to have the experience and then another experience of the experience. The experience is the experience.
I see what you're saying here, and I'll back away from saying sensory integration counts as evidence of a subject, but I still don't think you have a positive argument for rejection the notion of a self here. So sure, experience is experience, it's not some kind of information that's fed into the subject and mystically integrated there. But I still say look, there's an experience, it's thinking, it's the cogito. Maybe there's some kind of relation between some sequences of experiences that gives rise to an essential self across time or maybe there's not, doesn't matter, there's still something that's thinking, that's thinking about itself, and which is asking "can I doubt my own existence?" and concluding, correctly, "no, I can't".
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2018-10-24 at 1:45 PM UTC in How do I claw my way our of the epistemological void I find myself in?
Originally posted by Lanny I've heard this argument before but I never really got how it was supposed to work. Like what is free floating thought without a subject to think? The idea of thought without someone to think is obviously something that's never been encountered in our experience
The idea is simply that the observer isn't some unitary "bottom level" that experiences are delivered to, rather it is a phenomenon that emerges from and supervenes on unconscious phenomena, of which experiences and thoughts are a few.
"You" aren't "using" your thoughts, "you" are just the "narrative center of gravity" for your thoughts (as Dan Dennett puts it).but OK, we're Cartesians, so is it logically invalid? Like it kinda seems like that to me but let's try and abuse the notions of "subject" and "thought" or "doubt" as much as we can and postulate the thought which happens without a mind to conceive it. So what? That thought exists, perception exists, would Descartes even be bothered by this? He just says "ah, that thought over there without a thinker, that's what exists, that's the cogito" and bam, done.And I'm still not convinced perception without the subject is coherent, I think the idea of a subject is embedded in perception and necessitates it, but even if it doesn't what thesis built on cogito ergo sum is overturned?
Descartes would be very bothered, because the idea he is battling is that his thoughts and experiences could be a misrepresentation being "presented" to "him". Descartes was an interactionist who believed that the soul interacted with the body through the pineal gland, and the body was just syntactical machinery for the mind to manipulate.
The whole problem of the evil demon hinges on a notion of an essential identity of experience. Simply accepting that the thoughts are what there are, leaves no problem: if an evil scientist is constructing these thoughts in a jar, there is no "essence" to pull out into the real world and give real thoughts to, any continuity between them would just be the persistence of a "ship of Theseus" blob of mental and physical states which are interrelated and form some kind of collective identity, none of which are at all essential.
If "you" are just constructed out of your experiences, then there is no reason to doubt the validity of your experiences to you.
Imagine if the evil scientist pulls Descartes out of a vat and retains all his memories except he changes the memory of his name in the real world to "Rene Detrolley". Is Descartes or Detrolley having the experience of being lied to about being the other?
There is a reason why he resorted to "uhhhhh, god did it" in his dialogues with princess Elizabeth on dualism.What exactly is this supposed to be a test of?
The fact that your experience isn't happening at some central location in your head, it is distributed throughout your body, and actually felt and experienced in your limbs. The head fallacy is a very easy mistake to make because our eyes and ears are in there, and both are central to determining our position in the world.Descartes would seem to disagree, maybe coordination of sensory information is also a function of the subject and the fact that we experience a variety of qualitatively distinct streams of perception is further evidence for the subject (i.e. the fact that there seems to be something which both sees and hears, even if these perceptions don't reflect reality, suggests there is at least a subject in which they are unified or integrated), but that that is something which "you" do doesn't seem like any kind of argument against "your" existence.
That road leads to what is known as the homunculus fallacy, i.e. it simply transposes the question of how you perceive things and weave these threads together, onto how the little observer in your head does it. They are the same question. Does he have a little observer in his head?
There is no need to reach for such silliness because the premise is just pointless and flawed: to experience sight is to experience sight, you don't need to have the experience and then another experience of the experience. The experience is the experience.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-24 at 5:29 AM UTC in Looks like Mexico isn't gonna stop a damn thing. Here they come. What are you going to do about it?
Originally posted by GGG Op lives in a fantasy land. Realistically illegal immigrants don't get shit or ask for shit. It's largely white people who are deciding to offer all these things. Half that shit like a driver's license isn't even an issue. That's legal and you can get a license abroad in most coubtries. And since when did mexicans have nice jobs or care about you celebrating the 4th?
You're probably just a racist because you're insecure about yourself and need to feel better. Otherwise you'd present a real argument.
Bring on the trolls. You make my day
hah, you invalidated your entire fucking argument as soon as you said Mexicans have jobs no one cares about. It proves you're probably some faggot rich kid who has never had to lift a finger.
Yes, Americans of other races besides Mexicans work blue collar too bitch. We can't have illegal immigrants taking it from citizens.
Furthermore, tell Mexico and the rest of these fucking countries to get their shit together. You'd think being called shitholes would be a wake up call.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-23 at 7:45 PM UTC in How do I claw my way our of the epistemological void I find myself in?Try to get pregna...OH WAIT YEAH
Seriously just fucking live life and aspire for things to get better. I don't know you but unless you're a billionaire in the virgin islands with a haram of hawt young roshambos, life can get better and it will if you want it to and actively seek the measures to make it so. I don't know what that would look like because it's completely subjective.
As long as you're striving to better your circumstances, gain more insight into yourself and seeking truth you will never be bored entropic and complacent. I have different types of existential crises' weekly and my life situation can barely be described as living but I have hope in the future because I believe in myself and that I can still create my own destiny from within these parameters.
Show me your penisThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-23 at 10:54 AM UTC in How do I claw my way our of the epistemological void I find myself in?A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.
Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-23 at 10:44 AM UTC in How do I claw my way our of the epistemological void I find myself in?Lucy loo
I wish I had the perfect advise for you, but alas, I don’t. I am not in your shoes and I do not know how it feels. I can only try to understand. It would be so easy to say just do this or that, but sometimes it seems you restrict yourself. It saddens me to see you put yourself down, so I think you can be your own worst enemy.......been there.
But here’s what I see. A kind hearted young lady with a level head. A person who does not put herself first, but puts the welfare of others first. I know you have a passion in your heart, but maybe, just maybe, you need to concentrate on YOU! You need to love yourself, such easy words to say, huh? Doing it can be so tough. I guess small steps would be necessary. Maybe set small daily/ weekly goals. I used to write mantras to push myself forward daily; then I’d tape them on my mirror. Look in that mirror and accept who you are, fuck the rest. This is your life and no one can take your power.
Embrace the distractions, they could be there for a reason.
You deserve good things, but you have to believe it and KNOW it. Good luck my d e a r😘The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-22 at 8:51 PM UTC in Attention DH users - Fly’s long lost twin posts on NIS!The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-22 at 4:34 PM UTC in Change every letter in MOB to the next letter in the betabetThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-21 at 11:59 PM UTC in Had a super shitty date
Originally posted by Bill Krozby i wasn't behaving "badly" lol
Weren't you?
Originally posted by Bill Krozby Yesterday afernoon I picked up my side girl to go see and meet the toadies with me for their sound check so unfortunately we were there for hours before they played, that was kind of a mistake. We were walking down the street from where I parked and we have to walk thru spook ville but I"m used to ignoring them and one black dude yelled after we already passed them "hey you aren't looking at your girlfriend" and I said "shes not my girlfriend dumbass" and kept walking.
When we got to the venue and someone from the radio station mentioned how it was cool that I brought my wife with me and I didn't say anything this time. I started talking to these girls and she started talking to these 2 guys and I got pretty pissed off but didn't say anyting. Eventually we got back together and left the venue for coffee at starbuckse and a good walk.
The bands were all good actually amazing, so I tried to ignore her as much as I could. There was this new band "otis the destroyer" that hit pretty hard.
The toadies came one and after a few songs she was grinding on my dick and i was getting hard, I put my hands that were on her waist down into her panties and started finger fucking her as hard as I could to the music and while i was behind her she pushed her hand down into pants and I felt so good it was remarkable.
After several songs I tried to walk up closer with a bunch of other gonts and she grabbed me and told me to not go,t that she wanted to stand there because she cant see because she's short, she eventually just walked off and I got kind of pissed and left the show and slept in my car for like 20 min then went home.
She text me saying she took and uber home and I told her thats fine. She text me this moring saying she left stuff in my car and if she could get it back and I said sure doll but I'm busy right now.
I honestly don't want to ever see her again.
I saw wavves the night before by myself and it was way better because I didn't have to sit next to someone for hours where we didn't talk at all. At wavves I didn't get my cock grabbed but just have fun with bromos and sismos getting rowdy.
My daughters mom would pull the same bullshit bet not as intense, its kind of bullshit.
I guess I just got to let it go but it kind of bothered me.
You maintain a lot of attitudes that make it hard for a woman to feel appreciated. You may not have done anything particularly horrible to her, but you definitely didn't make her feel wanted. Then again, maybe that's why she's so keen on you. What is your idea of the right way to behave on a date at a show?The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 9:16 PM UTC in Would anyone be interested in a Bill Krozby q and a, in December?I would like to witness your coping mechanisms in real-time while people barrage you with the declaration that you are a low-life and a sexual predator. Your performance on the forum is certainly telling, but I've always wanted to see the expressions on your face while it happens.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-21 at 8:45 PM UTC in Should we embrace our grief?
Originally posted by MORALLY SUPERIOR BEING 2.0 - The GMO Reckoning Why do people cry when someone dies? Some people cry for the dead person, they were great, they deserved better than this world of death and rebirth. Others cry for themselves - I have lost this person I relied upon, and their loss will affect me.
But for someone to die when old, or after a long illness is no tragedy. Malice said he was unable to be happy, and his life was a problem to him. Some people die too early, some people die too late. I think that suicide can be a rational thing sometimes. If life is a problem, end it. Cut short the suffering, return to the norm.
And ultimately it was his own family that pushed him to kill himself - his aunts were bugging his father to throw him out following his failure to complete a year in college. He was vindicated - his family are trash.
I wish I was rich I would have loved to have gotten Malice to do research or something. But would he have been happy doing it? Doubt it. Even rich people, who get lots of money, sex, drugs commit suicide. In fact prosperity seems to cause people to kill themselves even more so.
What you said reminds me of something Malice said to me in a PM once, that suicide shouldn't be viewed as a negative. I tend to agree: suicide is a personal choice and sometimes it makes sense, but it's also very subjective in nature. I think that part of how we're processing this as a community is through validating Malice's choice, understanding it as if it were our own. This is a highly visible if unspoken theme in our 'mourning' threads that I've noticed.
Originally posted by infinityshock you can stop the charade you dumb faggot. no one is falling for it
This is a conversation about grief in a discussion forum. If you think it's pointless, at least provide substance to your opinion. In general, try to be a little less worthless.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 7:46 PM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?Listened to this thot sing this shitty song way too many times.
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2018-10-21 at 7:44 PM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?Come see how a nigga live :
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2018-10-21 at 4:57 PM UTC in Like I saidThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-21 at 3:38 AM UTC in I like the DH peopleI knew someone would say something, and I fully feel like HTS is a woman. She was born a man and I’m sure she wasn’t comfortable in her own skin. I know that she lived through anguish and self hate till she accepted herself. This is who she is, whether people like it or not. Ever since I came here I could only picture the words that she types as coming from a woman, no man posts like that. I’m glad she’s embraced her true self.
I’ve been around too long and know enough to know that people would never chose her lifestyle knowing the anguish and browbeating she’d take, but she had to be who she knew she was. If she wouldnt of, she’d probably go insane and live a life of misery, never being true to herself.
You can disagree with me and say she has deviant behavior, I say BS. I have a close friend who knew his daughter was gay since age 5, now that she’s 15, she is taking on her true identity as a man, before she came to terms with it, she was miserable and tried to kill her self repeatedly.
So this is my beliefs and my truths as I know and have experienced them.
AMENThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 2:55 AM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-21 at 2:08 AM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?
Happy Saturday Beautiful Starr🌹The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-10-21 at 2:06 AM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2018-10-20 at 9:01 PM UTC in What are you listening to right now, space nigga?Baby haaaair, with a woman’s eyes
I can feel you watching.. in the night
All alone with me..aaaaaand
We’re waiting for the sunri-iiiiise 🌞
When you feel cold
I’ll warm you!
And when you feel you can’t go on!
I’ll come and.. hoooold yoouuu
It’s you!
And me.. forevahhhhh
Sara.. smile🙂
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2018-10-20 at 8:49 PM UTC in Getting on the same bus as MaliceThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
