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I've started praying that my life will change
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2020-01-26 at 2:24 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox Free will you say??? Someone needs to go back to bible study
Proverbs 16:9 "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps"
Again you misinterpret to satisfy your own personal bias
Like literally do you not even remember adam and eve? Do you think a sinner is just damned to a life of sin because 'oh well god made him'? Lmao.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/
Literally just talk to a priest. Because I did. I learned from people in the church. My uncle was a prolific priest who smoked cigarettes, drank tequila, and was a man of the people. He taught me to play guitar and to love God.
You learned from google... and base your opinions on misconstrued misconceptions about the official standpoint of the church.
Literally from the pope: "Before all else be free persons!" said the Pope. "Freedom means knowing how to reflect on what we do, knowing how to evaluate . which are the behaviors that make us grow. It means always choosing the good.... Being free to always choose the good is challenging, but it will make you persons with a backbone, who know how to face life, [and live as] courageous and patient persons."
Seriously why would God create alternate religions and make people follow them? Why would he make people commit sinful acts? What is your logic here? "Christian dumb therefore bad?" Your mind can not seriously be so static and unmoving that you believe all Christians believe in determinism because of YOUR singular interpretation of scripture. -
2020-01-26 at 2:54 AM UTCI hope things are truly better for you OP
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2020-01-26 at 3:07 AM UTCOP has not experienced true suffering yet.
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2020-01-26 at 3:32 AM UTC
Originally posted by MexicanMasterRace Seriously why would God create alternate religions and make people follow them? Why would he make people commit sinful acts? What is your logic here? "Christian dumb therefore bad?" Your mind can not seriously be so static and unmoving that you believe all Christians believe in determinism because of YOUR singular interpretation of scripture.
My logic is that Christians believe this without even realizing they believe it. Take spectral for example, I asked him this
Originally posted by Fox Do you believe that god can do anything, be everywhere, created all in existence, and knows exactly what’s going to happen in the future?
And he said this
Originally posted by -SpectraL For the Creator, ALL things are possible. So say the scriptures. He can know the future, but he chooses not to. Just as you could read a book and jump ahead to the last chapter, but you choose not to. Why? Because knowing the ending is irrelevant to the journey of the reading. Another thing to remember is that, to the Creator, the past, the present and the future are all one thing.
So yes, he believes god is all the things I said, but then did a series of irrational mental gymnastics based on absolutely nothing at all to avoid facing the reality of what it actually means if those things are true: that you do not have free will.
Which is why the major tenets of Christianity make no fucking sense, they are contradictory. Why would some all-powerful being create an entire universe just to have us play out roles in some deranged cosmic play with no autonomy whatsoever from beginning to end? The only answer is that if there really is a god he is either not really the creator of all things (maybe some things but not all things), or he is not all-knowing (does not know the future, in other words events and actions can happen that go against his expectations). He couldn’t be both, and also we have free will. The first concept would preclude the other.
But you will never get a Christian to admit this about god because it would appear to diminish “his glory” -
2020-01-26 at 3:48 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox My logic is that Christians believe this without even realizing they believe it. Take spectral for example, I asked him this
And he said this
So yes, he believes god is all the things I said, but then did a series of irrational mental gymnastics based on absolutely nothing at all to avoid facing the reality of what it actually means if those things are true: that you do not have free will.
Which is why the major tenets of Christianity make no fucking sense, they are contradictory. Why would some all-powerful being create an entire universe just to have us play out roles in some deranged cosmic play with no autonomy whatsoever from beginning to end? The only answer is that if there really is a god he is either not really the creator of all things (maybe some things but not all things), or he is not all-knowing (does not know the future, in other words events and actions can happen that go against his expectations). He couldn’t be both, and also we have free will. The first concept would preclude the other.
But you will never get a Christian to admit this about god because it would appear to diminish “his glory”
Yes, you do have free will, and that is a gift from the Creator. -
2020-01-26 at 3:52 AM UTC
Originally posted by -SpectraL Yes, you do have free will, and that is a gift from the Creator.
You already contradicted yourself earlier. You literally said “god can know the future but chooses not to” but also “the past present and future are all the same thing to god”.
Do you even know the definition of “omniscient”? It means he knows everything, knows your thoughts before you think them, knows whether or not you’re going to heaven or hell, knows when you’re gonna take your next shit. It’s not about “choosing” to skip ahead and read the end of the book or whatever the fuck you said, he WROTE THE BOOK. Even the parts that haven’t happened yet.
See what I mean? Christians are incapable of consolidating their beliefs with the logical conclusion of those beliefs, namely that they actually have no free will. -
2020-01-26 at 3:56 AM UTCGod doesn't make you do anything though. He knows every outcome but it has nothing to do with him, all he did was create the universe.
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2020-01-26 at 4 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox You already contradicted yourself earlier. You literally said “god can know the future but chooses not to” but also “the past present and future are all the same thing to god”.
Do you even know the definition of “omniscient”? It means he knows everything, knows your thoughts before you think them, knows whether or not you’re going to heaven or hell, knows when you’re gonna take your next shit. It’s not about “choosing” to skip ahead and read the end of the book or whatever the fuck you said, he WROTE THE BOOK. Even the parts that haven’t happened yet.
See what I mean? Christians are incapable of consolidating their beliefs with the logical conclusion of those beliefs, namely that they actually have no free will.
Your actions can change your outcome and can have a real effect on the state of the future of the world. There's no contradiction. Nothing is written in stone. The end of the story depends on you. -
2020-01-26 at 4:01 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox You already contradicted yourself earlier. You literally said “god can know the future but chooses not to” but also “the past present and future are all the same thing to god”.
Do you even know the definition of “omniscient”? It means he knows everything, knows your thoughts before you think them, knows whether or not you’re going to heaven or hell, knows when you’re gonna take your next shit. It’s not about “choosing” to skip ahead and read the end of the book or whatever the fuck you said, he WROTE THE BOOK. Even the parts that haven’t happened yet.
See what I mean? Christians are incapable of consolidating their beliefs with the logical conclusion of those beliefs, namely that they actually have no free will.
You are really stupid, and again, focused on your own personal interpretation of the Bible rather than the widely and long accepted idea of God giving us free will. You are literally arguing against what the Pope has said.
I've gone to Church most of my life and have never heard the deterministic shit youre saying. The Church preaches the importance of using your free will for good. Again, the whole Adam and Eve thing is literally the first humans disobeying God after listening to the devil's advice. He punishes them for choosing poorly. That is free will. God did not dictate that they disobey him.
People disobey God several times throughout the Bible. He is not a puppeteer. He is a Shepard.
At least learn what a religion is about before you decide to go on hating it. -
2020-01-26 at 4:02 AM UTCEvery theist in here: God gave us free will
Fox: nO hE diDnt!!! -
2020-01-26 at 4:03 AM UTC
Originally posted by the man who put it in my hood God doesn't make you do anything though. He knows every outcome but it has nothing to do with him, all he did was create the universe.
Ok you just proved my point but you people seem to be struggling to understand this concept so I’ll dumb it down for you.
If I flip a coin none of us know if it’s gonna be heads or tails. That’s because we’re human.
If god flips a coin, he knows the exact amount of force he applies to the coin, he knows the angle at which he applies that force to the coin, he knows the exact position of the coin relative to his thumb, he knows the air pressure around the coin, he knows the composition and texture of the surface the coin lands on... I could go on but you get the idea.
So if you know all that data, every possible factor that goes into whether a coin lands on heads or tails, you obviously already know what’s going to happen before it hits the ground. And you are also the one who flipped the coin. If you never flipped it nothing would have happened, the coin would have just sat there having free will. But you flipped it.
Now take that coin toss and multiply it by the infinite complexity of all creation. And all that complexity starts with a Big Bang, a cosmic coin toss if you will. And god tossed that coin. Do you get what I’m saying now -
2020-01-26 at 4:05 AM UTCWe get whst you're saying. It's just not what the Bible says. Do some people believe it? Sure. But its dead wrong to say that Christians as a whole believe it.
Like I said, you are making up your own story and claiming it as fact. -
2020-01-26 at 4:07 AM UTCEarth is the domain of Satan. God rules heaven which is seperate from the physical realm. At least that's what they told me when I was a Jehovahs Witness.
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2020-01-26 at 4:11 AM UTC
Originally posted by MexicanMasterRace You are really stupid, and again, focused on your own personal interpretation of the Bible rather than the widely and long accepted idea of God giving us free will. You are literally arguing against what the Pope has said.
I've gone to Church most of my life and have never heard the deterministic shit youre saying. The Church preaches the importance of using your free will for good. Again, the whole Adam and Eve thing is literally the first humans disobeying God after listening to the devil's advice. He punishes them for choosing poorly. That is free will. God did not dictate that they disobey him.
People disobey God several times throughout the Bible. He is not a puppeteer. He is a Shepard.
At least learn what a religion is about before you decide to go on hating it.
The pope didn’t write the Bible retard. And again, my point was that Christians do not consciously realize they actually believe this. I never said they teach this shit in churches. I said you take what they DO teach about the abilities of god, and follow that to it’s logical conclusion, you will find that nobody has free will. Either god is not as powerful as they say, or we do not have free will. It’s one or the other.
It’s like you didn’t even read what I said. I’m done arguing with you because not a thing you’ve said refutes my argument and you seem more interested in insulting me personally than actually proving me wrong
GOOD DAY SIR -
2020-01-26 at 4:13 AM UTCGod doesn't interfere with the affairs of mortals.
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2020-01-26 at 4:13 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox Ok you just proved my point but you people seem to be struggling to understand this concept so I’ll dumb it down for you.
If I flip a coin none of us know if it’s gonna be heads or tails. That’s because we’re human.
If god flips a coin, he knows the exact amount of force he applies to the coin, he knows the angle at which he applies that force to the coin, he knows the exact position of the coin relative to his thumb, he knows the air pressure around the coin, he knows the composition and texture of the surface the coin lands on… I could go on but you get the idea.
So if you know all that data, every possible factor that goes into whether a coin lands on heads or tails, you obviously already know what’s going to happen before it hits the ground. And you are also the one who flipped the coin. If you never flipped it nothing would have happened, the coin would have just sat there having free will. But you flipped it.
Now take that coin toss and multiply it by the infinite complexity of all creation. And all that complexity starts with a Big Bang, a cosmic coin toss if you will. And god tossed that coin. Do you get what I’m saying now
You've started off with a straw man. God isn't the one tossing the coin. You are. -
2020-01-26 at 4:14 AM UTC
Originally posted by Fox The pope didn’t write the Bible retard. And again, my point was that Christians do not consciously realize they actually believe this. I never said they teach this shit in churches. I said you take what they DO teach about the abilities of god, and follow that to it’s logical conclusion, you will find that nobody has free will. Either god is not as powerful as they say, or we do not have free will. It’s one or the other.
It’s like you didn’t even read what I said. I’m done arguing with you because not a thing you’ve said refutes my argument and you seem more interested in insulting me personally than actually proving me wrong
GOOD DAY SIR
Cool conspiracy theories, retard -
2020-01-26 at 4:17 AM UTC
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2020-01-26 at 4:18 AM UTCand yes I know the old testement talks about how God interacted with humans a lot but that was written by jedis. It also mentions unicorns and aliens.
They were on some shit when they came up with all of that. Jesus really put them in their place and tried to explain that God doesn't need to do anything but sit back and watch. jedi people don't believe that though, they think God does interfere with the affairs of mortals and favors only jedi people for recognizing his actions.
That's why they are a minority. Most religions believe God has a hands off approach and they are right. It doesn't make sense for an all powerful creator to have to do anything. -
2020-01-26 at 4:18 AM UTC
