Do you think I'm a bad person?

1. 2016-08-21 at 1:27 AM UTC

   #21
   

   Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
   I can agree with that. Of course, not everyone would agree with each other's justifications.
2. 2016-08-22 at 3 PM UTC

   #22
   The Self Taught Man Black Hole
   Objective justification derived by logic.
3. 2016-08-22 at 3:16 PM UTC

   #23
   

   Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
   I don't know about that. Isn't morality subjective? If it is, how can we use logic to determine if an action is right or wrong? Just because an action can be logical doesn't mean it is also "right".
4. 2016-08-22 at 4:05 PM UTC

   #24
   The Self Taught Man Black Hole

   I don't know about that. Isn't morality subjective? If it is, how can we use logic to determine if an action is right or wrong? Just because an action can be logical doesn't mean it is also "right".

   Maybe it is subjective but I don't think it should be. Many practices around the world are socially and culturally accepted among specific subgroups, genital mutiliation in Sudan for example. The morality of those people is subjective and not derived by logic and therefore flawed. Cutting of clits is bullshit.
   
   This goes for all the religious nonsense that can't be backed by logic, as well. Especially if it hurts a human being.
   
   I think logic is the only way to determine if an action, or anything for that matter, is right.
5. 2016-08-22 at 4:30 PM UTC

   #25
   

   Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
   You can use logic to determine if "moral" premises have valid conclusions. This doesn't tell you if moral statements are subjective or objective, useful or useless, and helpful or harmful. Logic pertains to the form of arguments and inferences, not the content. Logic could tell you, for instance, which moral maxims contradict which other moral maxims, or which follow from which, or which are internally inconsistent, and so on, but not what which ones are right. Logic can't tell us how things are in the world, what the facts are, and there are plenty of folks who hold that morality or ethics doesn't even concern any matter of fact, and/or are not the sort of thing that can be true or false at all.
   
   If logic truly is the only way to determine if an action is right, would you mind demonstrating this in an example?
   
   Smoking may be hazardous to a smokers health, does that mean it's wrong/bad? Mountain climbing may also be hazardous to a mountain climbers health, does that mean it's wrong/bad?
   
   Personally I think that when it comes to morality the most logical conclusion is that morality is all in your head, nothing is absolutely right or wrong, an action just is what it is and we only attach the "right or wrong" label to it.
6. 2016-08-22 at 4:43 PM UTC

   #26
   The Self Taught Man Black Hole
   Logic must be applied in context. I wouldn't say climbing is bad or wrong just because it's dangerous. If the climber derived his decision to climb a rock by logic, which every successful climber does, he has a whole portfolio of rationally and logic decisions made before climbing that rock.
   
   If I decide to just climb a rock because why not, I'm going to die. That would maybe not be wrong from a morality standpoint but incredibly stupid.
   
   My door just rang so I have to cut this short.
   
   Smoking is definitely wrong, though.
7. 2016-08-22 at 4:54 PM UTC

   #27
   

   Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
   Well maybe you're right. Maybe right and wrong behavior can be decided logically and objectively. And maybe life would be better if we created a super human intelligence that was more logical than any human leader ever could be and just let it decide our fate for us.
   
   On the other hand, a smoker could always say smoking isn't bad or wrong just because it's dangerous. If the smoker derived his decision to smoke something by logic he has a whole portfolio of rationally and logic decisions made before smoking something. If the smoker decided to just smoke because why not, I'm going to die. That would maybe not be wrong from a morality standpoint but incredibly stupid.
   
   So I don't know.
8. 2016-08-22 at 4:58 PM UTC

   #28
   The Self Taught Man Black Hole

   If logic truly is the only way to determine if an action is right, would you mind demonstrating this in an example?

   
   I don't think I can (I already kinda have with the genital mutiliation thing). To me this is obvious. What else would there be? Emotions? Completely and utterly flawed. Not relevant in any way when it comes to logical decision making. (In an Utopia, I know this is not the case in reality)
   
   And yes, it is of course just all in our heads but the capability to think and apply logic to our actions is pretty sweet.
9. 2016-08-22 at 5:20 PM UTC

   #29
   

   Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]

   And yes, it is of course just all in our heads but the capability to think and apply logic to our actions is pretty sweet.

   
   It is pretty sweet, my point is merely that the ability to do that has nothing to do with morality. Like you said, it's all in our heads. This is not to say that people who commit crimes should not be trialed, or that people who make mistakes should not try to correct them; of course they should! But rather obviously our sense of what is right and what is wrong is not based on logic, or anything objective. It's all in your head. Morality is subjective. So maybe it's more important that our actions towards each other are useful, helpful, compassionate, rather than "right or wrong" or "good or bad".
10. 2016-08-22 at 11:54 PM UTC

    #30
    

    bling bling Dark Matter
    german bloke no no no
11. 2016-08-23 at 9:27 AM UTC

    #31
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole

    It is pretty sweet, my point is merely that the ability to do that has nothing to do with morality. Like you said, it's all in our heads. This is not to say that people who commit crimes should not be trialed, or that people who make mistakes should not try to correct them; of course they should! But rather obviously our sense of what is right and what is wrong is not based on logic, or anything objective. It's all in your head. Morality is subjective. So maybe it's more important that our actions towards each other are useful, helpful, compassionate, rather than "right or wrong" or "good or bad".

    I think you just have a problem attaching the "good or bad" label to anything. I'll spare you of why I think that is the case.
    
    If the decision is logical, it is right. Being useful, helpful and compassionate are all logical things when you break it down. They all serve a social purpose. They are the right thing to do to when appropriate. Perfectly logical when it comes to having a working social structure but completely wrong when a massmurdering psycho asks you to help him fuck as many babies as possible. Bad logic to go with that. Wrong in every possible way. Context is the key.
    
    Morality is subjective but it shouldn't be. It should be an objective truth to everybody but sadly we are not there yet.
12. 2016-08-23 at 9:32 AM UTC

    #32
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole
    If the smoker can back his decision to smoke (which is already an absolutely subjective action) by logic, he's doing the right thing. There aren't just any logical arguments that support smoking, though. Trust me. I've been smoking for 15 years and it just doesn't make any sense what so ever.
13. 2016-08-23 at 2:48 PM UTC

    #33
    

    Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
    Of course there could be logical arguments to smoking. If you want to get some sort of high, smoking some sort of drug is a logical step to attain that goal. If you hate every race but your own you might see genocide as a logical solution to your problem. But not everyone will agree that these actions are "right". That's because morality is subjective. You might think it should be objective, but it isn't. You might like to imagine that the logical answer is always the right answer, but I am sure you can imagine a scenario where you would actually disagree with that. Imagine if the entire world hated Germans. What's the logical solution? Get rid of the Germans! Is that a moral solution? Not everyone would agree that it is. Therefore morality is subjective.
14. 2016-08-23 at 6:31 PM UTC

    #34
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole
    Hate is an emotion. Emotions can't be factored in because they are the epitome of subjectivity by default.
    
    Gay sex.
    
    It seems completely illogical from an evolutionary standpoint. If two men want to reproduce, fucking eachother in the ass is not logical.
    
    If those dudes just enjoy the sensation of eachother's penises in their rectums then fucking eachother in the ass is the logical thing to do.
    
    
    Morality shmorality. Subjectivity is useless. Logic solves all problems.
    
    
15. 2016-08-23 at 6:38 PM UTC

    #35
    

    Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
    I can agree to that. But if that's true then maybe the question you should be asking yourself is not "am I good/bad" but "am I logical/illogical".
    
    However I maintain that just because an action is logical doesn't always mean it is good.
16. 2016-08-23 at 6:44 PM UTC

    #36
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole

    I can agree to that. But if that's true then maybe the question you should be asking yourself is not "am I good/bad" but "am I logical/illogical".
    
    However I maintain that just because an action is logical doesn't always mean it is good.

    I actually asked the forum. You asked me if I think that I'm bad.
    
    How can an illogical action be right? If you maintain by that, could you demonstrate it with an example?
17. 2016-08-23 at 6:53 PM UTC

    #37
    

    Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]

    I actually asked the forum. You asked me if I think that I'm bad.
    
    How can an illogical action be right? If you maintain by that, could you demonstrate it with an example?

    
    Because morality is subjective. For example, religious beliefs may be illogical but for most people they feel right.
18. 2016-08-23 at 7:07 PM UTC

    #38
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole
    Feel right and is right are two completely different things, though. We have established that already. Morality is subjective but it shouldn't be.
    
    If all people would agree that logic trumps emotion we wouldn't have shit like genital mutiliation or religious wars.
    
    Math is the pinnecal of problem solving disciplines and logic wins every time. (Don't start with Quantum Physics, they must be logical, we just haven't understood that stuff yet). Logic solves problems. Emotions cause them.
19. 2016-08-23 at 7:48 PM UTC

    #39
    

    Obbe Alan What? [annoy my right-angled speediness]
    Maybe you feel like it should not be subjective, but it is. Why should morality not be subjective?
    
    Maybe you're getting morality right/wrong confused with factual true/false. Morality right is all about feelings - it is subjective, after all. If we really all agreed that logic trumps emotion wouldn't we all end up suicidal like Malice?
    
    Wouldn't we all suicide because "life is suffering"? Isn't the reason you're still alive right now because it feels good? It feels right? Because logically there is no reason for us to exist at all. The universe is going to end one day and everything we might accomplish is for nothing.
20. 2016-08-23 at 8:02 PM UTC

    #40
    The Self Taught Man Black Hole
    There you go my friend. You finally got it.
    
    My life feels terrible but I made the logical decision to not end my suffering because I'm compassionate towards my loved ones and don't want them to suffer because of me. I've been dealing with this for over a decade and emotions play no role anymore in my actions or decisions. I have to fight them every day so logic wins. It's hard but you have to live by your words.
    
    If those nasty niggers had some discipline they would control their actions like I do and don't act on emotional impulses alone.
    
    I'm not a hippy, Obbe. Look at my avatar. I'm a student of that school of thought.