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Fona Thread 12/9/19 Heater/Electric Bill Resolution? and Weekend Update!!
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2019-12-09 at 8:13 AM UTC
Originally posted by Misguided Russian The best choice seems to be to (if you plug in multiple things) use a surge protector with a long cable instead of using a surge protector with an extension cord. If you use an extension cord with a surge protector then you need to make sure that the extension cord can handle the same/higher load than the surge protector is capable of handling.
I don't really know, though. Waiting for a reply from our resident electrician.
I have smoke detectors and renters insurance. -
2019-12-09 at 9:42 AM UTC
Originally posted by Misguided Russian Tell me more about power strips and the potential hazards they entail.
Do power strips with surge protectors help mitigate the risk of a fire caused by having a lot of shit plugged into it 24/7 as opposed to regular power strips without a surge protector? How important is it for a power strip to have a ground prong? Does the ground prong help to protect from fires?
How to calculate the wattage usage of all devices connected to a power strip/extension cord? How close to the maximum rating (listed on extension cord) is still safe?
Is it safe to assume that, should an extension cord used with a power strip (with surge protector), that the setup is safe if it is cool to the touch? Can it spontaneously combust without notice even if cool to the touch, or what mechanisms are at play?
Your typical power strip or cheap cord is made with small wire, often 16 or even 18awg which is much smaller than what's in the walls. Using them you are increasing the circuit length, adding the resistance of that puny little wire it's built with, and also adding the resistance of another plug-outlet connection which like the one in your wall grabs more poorly every time something is plugged in or removed. Cords also tend to get hidden behind furniture or other things where they are out of sight and can end up surrounded by debris that prevents them from shedding heat, and they are vulnerable to being crushed by furniture or appliances. In the case of use near heating equipment you also have the chance that the heater's output air will blow on or near the cord making it much hotter than the room temperature. I would also be concerned with the proclivity -not that I know what that word means- of chinese manufacturers to poorly build and inspect things, misrepresent product specifications, and falsify testing and certifications.
I don't think a household surge protector is meant to reduce fire risk, but is to protect your electronic equipment being ruined if you have a voltage spike. "Surge-Protective Device (SPD). A protective device for limiting transient voltages by diverting or limiting surge current ..." I guess it would depend if your surge protector relied on diverting the current to ground or not, my hunch is that it does and wouldn't offer protection without a ground connection but I'll look into it ( do you already have a surge protector ? ). If your devices have a ground prong they ought to be connected to a grounded outlet, one consideration is for safety with equipment that has exposed metal parts. If you have an old place that's only got ungrounded "two prong" outlets and you can't ground them there is another way to make them safe and be able to use "three prong" equipment - and it's not using those little cheater plugs from the hardware store.
You can just add up the wattages listed on your devices to determine total load, or if you have enough interest in seeing in real time these are fun to play with
What is the wire size of your extension cord and how many amps do they say it's good for?
Cool to the touch is good but I can't say that means it's a safe setup. The best practice would be not using extension cords for space heating equipment, especially unattended in a living space. I don't think a surge protector will do anything for your safety with an overloaded / overheated cord or piece of equipment.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-12-09 at 10:25 AM UTC
Originally posted by A College Professor Your typical power strip or cheap cord is made with small wire, often 16 or even 18awg which is much smaller than what's in the walls. Using them you are increasing the circuit length, adding the resistance of that puny little wire it's built with, and also adding the resistance of another plug-outlet connection which like the one in your wall grabs more poorly every time something is plugged in or removed. Cords also tend to get hidden behind furniture or other things where they are out of sight and can end up surrounded by debris that prevents them from shedding heat, and they are vulnerable to being crushed by furniture or appliances. In the case of use near heating equipment you also have the chance that the heater's output air will blow on or near the cord making it much hotter than the room temperature. I would also be concerned with the proclivity -not that I know what that word means- of chinese manufacturers to poorly build and inspect things, misrepresent product specifications, and falsify testing and certifications.
I don't think a household surge protector is meant to reduce fire risk, but is to protect your electronic equipment being ruined if you have a voltage spike. "Surge-Protective Device (SPD). A protective device for limiting transient voltages by diverting or limiting surge current …" I guess it would depend if your surge protector relied on diverting the current to ground or not, my hunch is that it does and wouldn't offer protection without a ground connection but I'll look into it ( do you already have a surge protector ? ). If your devices have a ground prong they ought to be connected to a grounded outlet, one consideration is for safety with equipment that has exposed metal parts. If you have an old place that's only got ungrounded "two prong" outlets and you can't ground them there is another way to make them safe and be able to use "three prong" equipment - and it's not using those little cheater plugs from the hardware store.
You can just add up the wattages listed on your devices to determine total load, or if you have enough interest in seeing in real time these are fun to play with
What is the wire size of your extension cord and how many amps do they say it's good for?
Cool to the touch is good but I can't say that means it's a safe setup. The best practice would be not using extension cords for space heating equipment, especially unattended in a living space. I don't think a surge protector will do anything for your safety with an overloaded / overheated cord or piece of equipment.
So plugging into electric socket is ideal, but if not possible:
So then it seems that the biggest risk comes from cheap power strips, where the power strip uses wiring of a thinner gauge than whats in the socket. Therefore the power going through the power strip (which would not give indications of a problem, because the current through the power strip will adequately power devices; although heating the wire) would eventually melt/burn the wire due to being overloaded. Yes?
So then so far, from socket to device on extension cord, all is good as long as the extension cord is rated above the power draw of plugged in device.
Then, should you need more sockets, a surge protector power strip is ideal to protect devices from power surge from thunder storms or whatever. The ideal setup would be a surge protector power strip with a long cord instead of using an extension cord in conjunction with a protected power strip. It is my understanding that using an extension cord in this situation is less ideal because 1) its possible to use an extension cord with too thin of wiring, and 2) the physical connections between extension cord power strip are technically vulnerable to physical damage, and the more such links you have, the technically more susceptible the system is to failure.
Do you know of any surge protected power strips that also have some sort of fuse or something that just turns everything off if it detects that it is drawing more current than the wiring is meant for?
I am not running any heaters, I am just curious about all of this wiring business as I have heard many times that using extension cords is technically a fire hazard, but I want to learn why exactly this is.
Basically if you use UL listed extension cords and/or power strips (meaning that the rating given to these products can be trusted [or can it?]), and as long as you don't attempt to draw more power than the weakest link in this system is rated to handle, then you should be good. Yes?
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2019-12-09 at 11:27 AM UTCHave fun with your $560 electric bill. Space heaters ARE NOT ENERGY EFFICIENT. I'm not sure how many of us have to tell you this shit.
By the way: Don't plug a fucking space heater into an extension cord. Your renters insurance isn't going to cover shit when they realize you were doing things you aren't supposed to. -
2019-12-09 at 11:49 AM UTCThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2019-12-09 at 11:55 AM UTCInb4 "Fona thread 12/10/19: My fucking house burned down today" 'So while I was at work those niggers broke into my house and burned it down. There probably jelous that I have love in my life and they have to sleep on the curb like the monkeys they are. What kind of tent do you guys suggest that will stay 104oF? Also, check out my sweet $95 gaming spork!"
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2019-12-09 at 12:27 PM UTCYou get cabin fever shutting yourself in the bedroom
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2019-12-09 at 12:30 PM UTC
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2019-12-09 at 12:31 PM UTCo, o yea.... that was funny
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2019-12-09 at 12:31 PM UTCI THINK NOT
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2019-12-09 at 1:29 PM UTC
Originally posted by Misguided Russian So plugging into electric socket is ideal, but if not possible:
Plug appliances / high-power devices straight into the wall outlet unless it's something temporary/portable. Yeah inadequate cords are still functional when overloaded but the insulation can only take so much heat before being damaged.
So then it seems that the biggest risk comes from cheap power strips, where the power strip uses wiring of a thinner gauge than whats in the socket. Therefore the power going through the power strip (which would not give indications of a problem, because the current through the power strip will adequately power devices; although heating the wire) would eventually melt/burn the wire due to being overloaded. Yes?So then so far, from socket to device on extension cord, all is good as long as the extension cord is rated above the power draw of plugged in device.
It should be, if you are just using the one cord/power-strip and not chaining multiple together. In general, extension cords are for temporary use. If you need it longer term than temporarily then there probably isn't a permanent receptacle close enough to your device and one should be installed. Most powerful pieces of equipment will come with instructions not to use it with extension cords or they will list acceptable length/wire-size combinations.Then, should you need more sockets, a surge protector power strip is ideal to protect devices from power surge from thunder storms or whatever. The ideal setup would be a surge protector power strip with a long cord instead of using an extension cord in conjunction with a protected power strip. It is my understanding that using an extension cord in this situation is less ideal because 1) its possible to use an extension cord with too thin of wiring, and 2) the physical connections between extension cord power strip are technically vulnerable to physical damage, and the more such links you have, the technically more susceptible the system is to failure.
Ideal would probably be having enough permanent receptacles for all of your devices, but most people don't have or want to have a dozen receptacles in the wall behind their television and another dozen behind their computer area etc. If you are going to use a power strip, yes it is my opinion that buying one built with an appropriate length cord would be preferable to one built with a short cord and an extension cord added to it - if they manufactured it as an assembly and can say with some confidence that assembly is suitable for a certain load, start chaining stuff together making it longer and safe capacity will drop.Do you know of any surge protected power strips that also have some sort of fuse or something that just turns everything off if it detects that it is drawing more current than the wiring is meant for?
I don't, but I am interested and will look into it. Personally I use 12AWG American-made extension cords, in a typical house most of the general purpose receptacles will be wired with 12AWG or 14AWG wire and has circuit breakers sized to protect that wiring accordingly. So typically my #12 cords would be adequately protected by the circuit breaker, just like the wiring in the wall. They cost more and might be too heavy for grandma but I'm not worried about them melting, and they have less voltage drop which is kinder to heavy loads.I am not running any heaters, I am just curious about all of this wiring business as I have heard many times that using extension cords is technically a fire hazard, but I want to learn why exactly this is.
Because they can make a very affordable cord by using much smaller wire than is used to supply the permanent receptacles, smaller wire has more resistance so it gets hotter than a bigger wire would for the same load and the little cord could be overloaded to the point of melting/burning before the circuit breaker would ever trip. Longer cords have more length to get crushed, pierced, covered with debris, yanked so they are only still plugged in by a hair, tripped over so they yank a kitchen appliance off the counter etc. If you need to use a cord long-term then you probably have a shortage of receptacles so then I'd say it's likely you have multiple things that you want to plug into it etc etc.
STORY TIME
Look at fona for example, he gets bored and goes shopping at True Value for nothing in particular and gets googly eyed at the pretty orange 3 dollar extension cords , he buys this amazing sale item and and on the way home he also acquires an epic air-fryer out of a crackheads trunk. After plugging in his new extension cord to his power strip he snakes it through his sofa ( which he has displaced to play GI JOE DUCT INSPECTOR TENNANT FROM HELL ) and puts some chicken nuggers in his new kitchen gadget. Chelle wheezes at him to put the sofa back so he uses his retard strength to toss it back against the wall and one of the sofa feet slam down on the cord. Then he starts buying space heaters, OH GOD HE'S BUYING LOTS OF SPACE HEATERS, he already beat the space heater up using his retard strength before even switching the thing on. How much more abuse is that cord going to take over the winter while little Arny struts around in another man's basketball shorts trying to be the man of the house ( it just doesn't make any sense really ) while chelly is dressed up like an eskimo and with all the trauma she has been through this yearBasically if you use UL listed extension cords and/or power strips (meaning that the rating given to these products can be trusted [or can it?]), and as long as you don't attempt to draw more power than the weakest link in this system is rated to handle, then you should be good. Yes?
I don't think the weakest-link analogy is the most accurate way to look at it, it's even worse than weakest-link. The wiring resistance in the circuit will be cumulative. So you could very well have two cords that on their own are suitable for 13A, but chain them together for more length and are now suitable for less than 13A because together there is now twice as much resistance.
The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-12-09 at 1:57 PM UTCYou are fighting an uphill battle with this one. Space heaters cause house fires and insurance wont cover the loss. Using electric space heaters does not make your apartment more efficient.
From the pics you provided you have a furnace most likely natural gas or oil fired. Best thing to do is to find a place that has baseboard hot water heat with a direct vent boiler. Those units are 95% efficient. -
2019-12-09 at 2:05 PM UTCThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2019-12-09 at 2:06 PM UTC
Originally posted by A College Professor I don't think the weakest-link analogy is the most accurate way to look at it, it's even worse than weakest-link. The wiring resistance in the circuit will be cumulative. So you could very well have two cords that on their own are suitable for 13A, but chain them together for more length and are now suitable for less than 13A because together there is now twice as much resistance.
Will getting thicker cords mitigate this issue? -
2019-12-09 at 2:17 PM UTC
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2019-12-09 at 2:20 PM UTCsince you are a renter and not a homeowner, anyone with a brain would use this route:
Drape Your Home in Velvet
A set of sturdy drapes, like a velvet or thermal curtain set, is an attractive way to keep warm air from leaking out of your apartment. Thermal curtains, especially, are designed with insulation in mind and keep your home cozy and your energy use low. They’re especially great for those drafty balcony doors that apartment planners are so fond of. And if you plan on keeping your porch doors locked and bolted until summer, you can also secure the curtains to the wall using masking tape for extra insulation. -
2019-12-09 at 2:23 PM UTCi mean, this site really is very much like communicating with the handicap!!The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2019-12-09 at 2:28 PM UTCyou call me BOOMER while you too fucking STUPID to know using electricity is still going to cost you. where using these drapes there is no electricity involved and you can put them all over your walls, windows, whatever and it literally cuts your bill 80%
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2019-12-09 at 2:29 PM UTCfucking MORONS in this shithole!!
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2019-12-09 at 3:21 PM UTC
Originally posted by Misguided Russian Will getting thicker cords mitigate this issue?
For 15A you want a power cord with 14awg wires in it
for 20A you want 12AWG
for 30A you want 10AWG
(obviously the breaker needs to match all that).
ETA: Power cord is usually sold sized like that "14/3 SO" (where 14 is the gauge of wire, 3 is the number of wires/cores, and the SO is the type of insulation, SO SJO is commonly used, you don't really need to worry about the type of insulation unless you have a weird installation...such as outdoors, or chemical resistance etc.
