is everyone evil

2015-08-14 at 4:56 PM UTC

#61

arthur treacher African Astronaut

Imagine if I actually put effort into this discussion

2015-08-16 at 7:08 PM UTC

#62

Lanny Bird of Courage

There have been a shitload of thinkers that have made a compelling case for libertarian policies.

Remember "the case of libertarian policies" here has to mean "the case for why libertarian policies result in the maximum good for the most people" (since that was the acceptance criteria we're talking about). So let's see it, present me a compelling argument for that.

In my experience such arguments are either of the form "Look at [soviet russia/china/north korea/red boogeyman of the decade] and how low quality of life is there" or "look at this case where I don't think maximizing utility is the moral thing to do" (ala your sacrifice-my-first-child case) both of which completely miss the point.

It's an ethical principle, that's the same as saying: If i could prove that sacrificing your first born child increases the summer harvest by 100% would you do it? No of course i wouldn't because it's morally reprehensible.

So your answer is no then? Well, like I said, it just proves my point, if you care about NAP than human well being than you care less about humanity than act utilitarians do.

If utility comes before morality in your worldview you're not a good person.

In the utilitarian model maximizing utility is fundamentally the same thing as morality. I could just as easily say "If upholding NAP comes before morality in your world view you're not a good person" but both would miss the point, the question is "what is moral" so any time you say "you're not a good person if you put something before [thing I consider necessary for morality]" then you're just begging the question.

Nigger please, did you even read Molyneux? Besides that, there have been more than one philosopher to advocate the NAP.

Nigger please what? I haven't read any of his long-form work cover to cover, I read a few chapters out of universally preferable behavior before I couldn't take any more. Have you read anything by Bentham, Mill, or Parfit?

2015-08-16 at 7:25 PM UTC

#63

Lanny Bird of Courage

As you may recall i'm an anarchist and i support the NAP, the government is nothing but a monopoly on violence so you're correct, public education and roads and whatever policy you have is an implicit threat of imprisionment and death. Now, that is not to say i do not support education, or don't give a shit about the poor, it is to say that there are multiple ways of solving these problems and i'd be willing to wager we don't need any violence to do so.

Fine, but my point stands that it's a dumb criticism to say "I'd respect wealth redistributionists more if they didn't threaten me with death" (lol) since by your notion of "death threat" that's the same thing as saying "I'd respect wealth redistributionists more if they didn't support wealth redistribution and agreed with me". Fundamentally the only thing you've told us is "I don't support wealth redistribution" which personally I kinda already figured.

If you support the state and it's ok for the state to take away people's property at gunpoint why isn't it ok for you? Is the state in a magical sphere of moral absolution no matter what they do? Seems legit.

Not at all, in fact if you read what I posted I said I'd find "robinhood" style crime acceptable in the absence of alternatives. But the bigger point is that the state is able to tax in a controlled manner that doesn't impoverish people and use that money in a more optimal way than it would have been spent by the taxed individuals. I'm not saying this is an intrinsic property of all states, obviously it's possible to waste tax revenue as demonstrated by the right's absurd military spending in the US. But it's something a state or state-like entity is uniquely set up to do, it would be almost impossible for individuals to reasonably assess their own needs against the needs of others and come to a fair redistribution strategy.

At least the libertarian school of thought is consistent in it's 'quasi-moral framework'. Can't say the same for socialism because it is implied the state is above moral scrutiny to serve 'the greater good' whatever that's supposed to mean.

See, this is where the accusations of the left not understanding the opposition is so laughable. There is absolutely nothing in socialism, utilitarianism, or any other idea discussed here that proposes the state is above moral scrutiny, in fact the state is the primary object of moral scrutiny under my view because it holds the most power it also has the most grave moral responsibility.

2015-08-16 at 7:29 PM UTC

#64

Lanny Bird of Courage

'made up' as in humans made it. Socialism didn't just appear one day, did it?

Yeah, and crazy shit like NAP and property-law-on-steroids which are hallmarks of libertarianism aren't written into the fabric of the universe either. "Conceived of by a human" seems like the least damning criticism you could possible make of an idea.

I am not trying to have an ideology, I am just trying to underscore how nature and the world work.

Lets say that tomorrow, a meteor hit the earth and 90% of everyone died and we were basically living in 'Mad Max' times.

The first thing people would do, is arm themselves. Then they would set up a store. They sure wouldn't set up anything remotely resembling socialism. Capitalism is just an expression of the natural human condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

2015-08-16 at 7:34 PM UTC

#65

Lanny Bird of Courage

So if you and I took a course at a university together and I fucked the entire semester and did squat. While you busted your ass and produced A+/4.0 gpa effort. Would you be ok with both of us getting a C/2.0?

Dumb example, in a lot of ways. Firstly grades in an academic class are totally different than utility. Earning a mediocre grade in a class you didn't learn anything in doesn't serve anyone's interests. Also you fundamentally misunderstand utilitarianism if you think it's the same thing as "everyone gets exactly the same thing".

2015-08-16 at 7:35 PM UTC

#66

arthur treacher African Astronaut

fuck libertarianism

I am a far right wing extremist

also, isn't everything on earth 'natural'?

2015-08-16 at 7:38 PM UTC

#67

arthur treacher African Astronaut

you can throw works of literature, and intellectual concepts at me all day long, but there will never be a time and place, ever on this earth, that 'socialism' and its ilk will fit in without forcing people to abide by it

see, that's the difference between 'right' and 'left'.....if the right took over tomorrow, we would still let you lefties think and believe and live how you wanted. But if the leftists took over, they (you) would most likely have us righties killed.

2015-08-16 at 7:38 PM UTC

#68

Lanny Bird of Courage

You can thank him and his fellow lefties for the inevitable economic collapse of America in the future.

Lol, did you know I've never voted in an american election? The american democratic party is about as socialist as as a piece of toast, regardless of what the right tell you. Political commentators in this country wouldn't know what socialism was if it hit them in the face.

2015-08-16 at 7:39 PM UTC

#69

Lanny Bird of Courage

fuck libertarianism

I am a far right wing extremist

...

also, isn't everything on earth 'natural'?

So why is calling socialism "all made up" any kind of condemnation then?

2015-08-16 at 7:41 PM UTC

#70

Lanny Bird of Courage

you can throw works of literature, and intellectual concepts at me all day long, but there will never be a time and place, ever on this earth, that 'socialism' and its ilk will fit in without forcing people to abide by it

You'll forgive me if I take lightly the forecasts of someone who's apparently afraid of reading a book every now and then. Did you know Pol Pot wasn't a big fan of "literature and intellectual concepts" either?

see, that's the difference between 'right' and 'left'…..if the right took over tomorrow, we would still let you lefties think and believe and live how you wanted. But if the leftists took over, they (you) would most likely have us righties killed.

Ahahahahaha

2015-08-16 at 7:42 PM UTC

#71

The Boobyverse X = X 1 = 0 Tuskegee Airman

socialism is to toast as capitalism is to ___

tea?

2015-08-16 at 7:43 PM UTC

#72

arthur treacher African Astronaut

Look at lanny trying to alinsky me

face it, you got nothing but lists of other people's ideas to back you up.

reality, on the other hand.....

2015-08-16 at 7:44 PM UTC

#73

The Self Taught Man Black Hole

Dumb example, in a lot of ways. Firstly grades in an academic class are totally different than utility. Earning a mediocre grade in a class you didn't learn anything in doesn't serve anyone's interests. Also you fundamentally misunderstand utilitarianism if you think it's the same thing as "everyone gets exactly the same thing".

You still did not answer my question.

2015-08-16 at 7:45 PM UTC

#74

arthur treacher African Astronaut

You still did not answer my question.

you blundered in here and messed up my flow, you no-content, corny old ewok butthole

2015-08-16 at 7:59 PM UTC

#75

arthur treacher African Astronaut

I have some extracting to do out in the garage, and it is going to simmer dry if I don't go tend to it, but I just want you to know, lanny, that I am extremely well-read. I even read some of the works that you name, probably. I don't know for sure.

you see, when I see people throwing around lists of other people's intellectual works, my eyes glaze over and I just skim right over the list. I find it distasteful, tedious, and counterproductive to argue by throwing links and references around. I am of the opinion that when you're right, you're right, and if you're right, then you don't need to mine other peoples thoughts and other people's material for 'ammo'.

call me anti-intellectual, say that I am an idiot for wanting to stand on my own, but the fact is, there is a time and a place to rely on other's work and thoughts, but the truth, the truth can stand on its own.

2015-08-16 at 8:16 PM UTC

#76

Lanny Bird of Courage

Look at lanny trying to alinsky me

face it, you got nothing but lists of other people's ideas to back you up.

reality, on the other hand…..

You're just trolling now

2015-08-16 at 8:19 PM UTC

#77

Lanny Bird of Courage

You still did not answer my question.

The answer is no, the scenario you described would not be a good thing. It has nothing to do with socialism though.

2015-08-16 at 8:22 PM UTC

#78

arthur treacher African Astronaut

You're just trolling now

So, should I be like you, and demand that you reply to every nuance of my arguments?

Nah, I pretty much drive-by post this shit, and don't put any effort in, so I will let you slide.

In a day or two, after much thought and consideration, you will reply with references from some leftist faggot author-of-the-month that put stars in your eyes.

2015-08-16 at 8:35 PM UTC

#79

Lanny Bird of Courage

you see, when I see people throwing around lists of other people's intellectual works, my eyes glaze over and I just skim right over the list. I find it distasteful, tedious, and counterproductive to argue by throwing links and references around.

Lol, so it's distasteful to reference prior art but literally declaring yourself "extremely well read" is just the classiest thing ever?

Besides, did you even read my post? Soph, supposedly arguing the same position as you, threw out Molyneux to start with, I was just pointing out expecting me to have read a particular work as a prerequisite to having a position on a subject would be hypocritical if he hadn't read some of the important works pertaining to the position I'm defending..

I am of the opinion that when you're right, you're right, and if you're right, then you don't need to mine other peoples thoughts and other people's material for 'ammo'.

I don't even know what to say to that, it's so dumb. How do you learn about your inherent right-ness exactly? Does a bell toll to let you know that your rube intuition is an unquestionable truth of the universe and so there's no point supporting it with arguments or thinking about opposing positions?

2015-08-16 at 8:43 PM UTC

#80

arthur treacher African Astronaut

declaring yourself "extremely well read" is just the classiest thing ever?

it has nothing to do with 'class', you were all but implying that I am some sort of anti-intellectual troglodyte.

also, your name-calling is quite unseemly. Go do some research, make a list, and then get back to me when you have an actual reply, with content.

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