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Policeman beheaded and son has heart/skin removed while alive
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2018-01-23 at 12:07 PM UTC
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2018-01-23 at 12:11 PM UTC
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2018-01-23 at 12:44 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon In my opinion, predetermination is simply irrelevant to what makes a choice free or not. You don't need to be some kind of decision making engine outside of causality to be free. Do you want to do something? Is someone else stopping you from doing it or forcing you to do otherwise? That's a free choice.
It's "free" in the same sense that a ball rolling down a hill is "free" to continue rolling in that direction unless something disrupts it. But it's not like the ball has any choice to do anything else. The ball is incapable of rolling up the hill on its own, or stopping, just as your will is incapable of doing anything other than what the factors you are unaware of and exert no control over have determined your will to be. Calling that free will is ridiculous because when people claim they have free will they mean they feel like they can stop or change direction at will, unlike the ball rolling down the hill. -
2018-01-23 at 12:46 PM UTC
Originally posted by Totse 2001 this is fucked up and sick. I'm not watching it. the first page of tard has painted a picture enough.
skipping page 2 all the way to 11 because it was such baitclick it seems. Do you guys hate cops that much? it's someone and his son and why does this shit keep happening down there?
San Francisco is becoming selective lawlessness
Because your authorities keep letting illegal aliens run amok -
2018-01-23 at 1 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Alright. Fuck this. I changed my mind, and by that I mean I, uhh, am of no choice of my own, switching my position on the matter, apparently because my fingers are typing this and I guess I never had a choice to begin with.
So, I don't have free will, and I never did. I understand it now, that I am just a human-vehicle that exists solely from circumstance, and whose only purpose is to transport the human-driver inside me who already knows exactly where he needs to go without a second thought, and represents the near entire cancellation of anything I've believed to be the unique and individual components of my life and my choices. In the acknowledgement that I have no free will, I accept and understand that I'm merely existing without any unique or self-gratifying presence , rather instead I am am a vessel whose any worth is to carry out that of which has been predetermined. Truth be told I don't even need to refer to myself as I, but will refer to mmQ's embodiment and role in existence as Vehicle-me, or V-me, and I the narrator of this post am Driver-me, or D-me.
Firstly, Vehicle-me understands that though his natural instinct makes him feel like he's coming up with this post, and wants to, because he's feeling the thoughts and process run through his head. The reality is that nothing vehicle-me wants to do is anything more than predetermined desires from the predetermined will that I, Driver-me, represent. V-me is likely confused about what this means and why he's even thinking these things and writing them down. Truth be told, he never had a choice and certainly realizes that this is happening whether he likes or not.
Unfortunately, V-me still has to feel like he's making all the decisions despite now coming to realize that he in fact has never truly made one singular decision in his entire life and he never will.
V-me now understands that although nothing he says, thinks, or does should be held against him or in any way be attributed to him since he isn't actually author of their creation, but only their production. Unfortunately, whichever laws are in existence will always still trump his lack of culpability, which of course means the potential for incarceration, something he is certainly already familiar with.
V-me also understands that the things he considered in life to be his personal accomplishments and failures are no longer defined as such since an opposing outcome was never possible to begin with. Any credit or blame associated to him or felt by him is completely meaningless.
V-me also understands that any and all attributes associated with him will remain applicable though they are ultimately decided by Driver-me and in no way influenced by V-me.
V-me no longer need s to concern himself with the questioning of why he experiences certain feelings or emotions, as they are all permanent fixtures within him and he couldn't choose to feel differently if he wanted to. He understands that anything he has ever cared about was of no choice of his own, and that caring at all about anything should no longer even be considered as a genuine bond or relationship, given that he never truly had a personal choice in the matter.
Finally, a reminder that that, of course, there was no decision made by V-me to create, type, or post this summation, and any readers up to this point may yourselves consider it's application to not only his future self but yours as well. The little humor is that my suggestions to you mean nothing. If you're meant to adopt the absence of free will philosophy, it will happen.
V-me will now go forward with the understanding that everything he's ever been involved in in any way shape or form was in no way under his control, and understands that he has no longer has what was once considered any personal skills, talents, abilities, or anything attributed to self-accomplishment. Knowing that you never have and cannot ever make your own frew willed decision unfortunately renders all former accomplishment as nothing more than the fulfillment of what it is already guaranteed.
Remember. Since there's no will, there's no way.
There is a distinction between voluntary and involuntary actions but it does not support the common idea of free will. A voluntary action is accompanied by the felt intention to carry it out while an involuntary action isn't. It makes sense to treat a man who enjoys murdering differently than one who accidentally hit and killed a person with his car. The conscious intentions of the former give us a lot of information about how likely he is to behave in the future. But where intentions come from and what determines their character in every instance remains mysterious. Our sense of free will results from a failure to appreciate this: we do not know what we intend to do until the intention arises in our mind like any other thought. To understand this is to realize that we are not authoring our thoughts and actions in the way people generally believe we do. -
2018-01-23 at 1:09 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind It's "free" in the same sense that a ball rolling down a hill is "free" to continue rolling in that direction unless something disrupts it. But it's not like the ball has any choice to do anything else. The ball is incapable of rolling up the hill on its own, or stopping, just as your will is incapable of doing anything other than what the factors you are unaware of and exert no control over have determined your will to be. Calling that free will is ridiculous because when people claim they have free will they mean they feel like they can stop or change direction at will, unlike the ball rolling down the hill.
The ball doesn't have anything but 1 single option to choose from, which doesn't make it a choice at all. There's no potential will in which it could freely choose to begin with.
As humans, and as I've said like 10 times now, we have a vast array of options available to us at all times. At any point we could possibly do say or think any one of practically an infinite amount of options. I know you're trying to say that like the ball, there is ultimately only one option that we CAN take, and the choice we end up making is always going to be the choice that has already been determined you'd be most likely to make. I agree with that.
Let me ask you this. Why is that we take the time to mull over big decisions, or think about what we want to have for dinner , or consider doing laundry today or not?
Why do you think people weigh out different possible decisions? -
2018-01-23 at 1:44 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ The ball doesn't have anything but 1 single option to choose from, which doesn't make it a choice at all. There's no potential will in which it could freely choose to begin with.
As humans, and as I've said like 10 times now, we have a vast array of options available to us at all times. At any point we could possibly do say or think any one of practically an infinite amount of options. I know you're trying to say that like the ball, there is ultimately only one option that we CAN take, and the choice we end up making is always going to be the choice that has already been determined you'd be most likely to make. I agree with that.
Let me ask you this. Why is that we take the time to mull over big decisions, or think about what we want to have for dinner , or consider doing laundry today or not?
Why do you think people weigh out different possible decisions?
Of course people consider a variety of possibilities but the whole process of "making a decision" is still just chemical interactions bound by the laws of physics. -
2018-01-23 at 1:51 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Of course people consider a variety of possibilities but the whole process of "making a decision" is still just chemical interactions bound by the laws of physics.
not that I want to get into this, but didn't you take the opposite position last time we had this discussion? I distinctly remember saying 'compatibilism' is retarded and ill-defined -
2018-01-23 at 1:54 PM UTC
Originally posted by aldra not that I want to get into this, but didn't you take the opposite position last time we had this discussion? I distinctly remember saying 'compatibilism' is retarded and ill-defined
Years ago I was arguing with lanny almost identicallly to what c.f. is arguing here. I do agree that freewill is incoherent unless defined under compatibilism. But now I feel that compatibilism is kinda stupid and either misses the point or changes the topic of what people mean when they claim to have free will.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2018-01-23 at 1:57 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Of course people consider a variety of possibilities but the whole process of "making a decision" is still just chemical interactions bound by the laws of physics.
Of course our choices are bound by the laws of physics and involve our brain.
Originally posted by mmQ Let me ask you this. Why is that we take the time to mull over big decisions, or think about what we want to have for dinner , or consider doing laundry today or not?
Why do you think people weigh out different possible decisions? -
2018-01-23 at 3:16 PM UTC
Originally posted by HTS It is without assuming a soul or similar
An idea like a soul has no relevance to free will.
You, like Obbe, keep setting up a fallacious framework where you began the question by putting the conclusion, that deterministic principles are incompatible with free will, in your premise, that free will is incompatible with determinism. Unless you can justify your conclusion with a valid premise, your opinion is shit.if your cognition is just chemical interactions bound by the laws of physics, nothing you do is as a result of free will because your will is predetermined. Without assuming a soul which exists separately from the mechanistic physical world, no.
I won't deny we have the illusion of free will, but it is just that. An illusion. A comforting one. A mercy, frankly.
What is the definition of free will you are applying here?
My definition, that your will is free because it's unconstrained by any external agent, is perfectly consistent and compatible with a deterministic universe.
What would it take for one's will to be free? What would a free being's decision making entail? Let's say you had to choose between a pizza and a sandwich.
I say that if you want the pizza, for whatever reason (whether it was caused by an RNG engine in your brain or simply by the weight of your prior experiences), and you can take the pizza then your will to do so is free. How "you" come to want the pizza in terms of all of the causal events of the universe or a random decision is irrelevant.
How would a theoretically free willed being make this decision? -
2018-01-23 at 3:19 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind It's "free" in the same sense that a ball rolling down a hill is "free" to continue rolling in that direction unless something disrupts it. But it's not like the ball has any choice to do anything else. The ball is incapable of rolling up the hill on its own, or stopping, just as your will is incapable of doing anything other than what the factors you are unaware of and exert no control over have determined your will to be. Calling that free will is ridiculous because when people claim they have free will they mean they feel like they can stop or change direction at will, unlike the ball rolling down the hill.
I've already dunked on this exact argument. -
2018-01-23 at 3:21 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Years ago I was arguing with lanny almost identicallly to what c.f. is arguing here. I do agree that freewill is incoherent unless defined under compatibilism. But now I feel that compatibilism is kinda stupid and either misses the point or changes the topic of what people mean when they claim to have free will.
It's funny that you say that because you keep trying to avoid nailing down a coherent definition of free will like a jedi dodging talking about Israeli crimes against humanity. -
2018-01-23 at 4:33 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Of course our choices are bound by the laws of physics and involve our brain.
Let me ask you this. Why is that we take the time to mull over big decisions, or think about what we want to have for dinner , or consider doing laundry today or not?
Why do you think people weigh out different possible decisions?
The same reason every other chemical or physical process takes time. -
2018-01-23 at 4:35 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon It's funny that you say that because you keep trying to avoid nailing down a coherent definition of free will like a jedi dodging talking about Israeli crimes against humanity.
Free will is incoherent unless you define it to mean something like a ball rolling down a hill has free will. The problem is that when most people talk about their freewill when deciding what to eat or how to fold their laundry, they don't feel like a ball rolling down a hill, they feel like they could change direction all on their own. But you and I know they cannot. -
2018-01-23 at 4:46 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind The same reason every other chemical or physical process takes time.
Why do you think people weigh out different possible decisions?
I'm not asking why does it literally take time to do something.. cmon now, I'm wondering why opt to take that more time to decide where they want to go on vacation, but don't take the time to think about if turning their doorknob is gonna is still going to be the way they open their door when they leave? -
2018-01-23 at 4:55 PM UTC
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2018-01-23 at 5 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Free will is incoherent unless you define it to mean something like a ball rolling down a hill has free will.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-questionThe problem is that when most people talk about their freewill when deciding what to eat or how to fold their laundry, they don't feel like a ball rolling down a hill, they feel like they could change direction all on their own. But you and I know they cannot.
Of course they can. Our disagreement isn't on whether or not their ultimate direction is predetermined but what "changing it on their own" means. What would it mean for them to change direction on their own? I'm not going to let you slither out of defining this point. -
2018-01-23 at 5:30 PM UTC
Originally posted by benny vader in other words : your free wills are confined by your lack of wants.
Lol. Uhh, no. The things that I don't have to consider wanting to do are still available as options if I ever decided otherwise. The absence of desire has no bearing on my restricting my free will, in fact it could be argued that it expands it. I'm absolutely free to have an infinite amount of things that I DONT want to do and they are all continually fulfilled every waking minute of every day. -
2018-01-23 at 5:39 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Lol. Uhh, no. The things that I don't have to consider wanting to do are still available as options if I ever decided otherwise. The absence of desire has no bearing on my restricting my free will, in fact it could be argued that it expands it. I'm absolutely free to have an infinite amount of things that I DONT want to do and they are all continually fulfilled every waking minute of every day.
that is assuming that the causes of your absence of desire is within your control.
do you control the factors that lead you to desire, or desire not of things and actions ???
