User Controls
Ayy lmao, a friend of mine broke both arms while mountain biking.
-
2017-08-16 at 12:36 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Nigger, do you have athletic abilities problems?
Compatibilism defines free will as acting under your own motive, even if that motive is predetermined.
You're telling me that the "libertarian" idea of free will is that our choices are driven by nothing. I'll ignore how retarded this definition is, as it is purposely set up to be knocked down. We can both agree that this is impossible, but my contention is that this is a meaningless statement unless you can specifically describe how such a thing can exist, because the definition you've given is similar to saying "make me a blue circle on white paper with red ink".
To boil it down, I'll give you the same questions I did in the other thread:
#1, by the above definition of free will, do you think that a truly random number generator is "free"?
I'm telling you that the libertarian idea, or even the intuitive "sense" of freewill that humans naturally experience, is that your choices are driven by your "self" and your self alone. But in reality this is clearly not the case. This is the problem of freewill. Defining freewill as you have just ignores this problem all together. -
2017-08-16 at 1:07 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind I'm telling you that the libertarian idea, or even the intuitive "sense" of freewill that humans naturally experience, is that your choices are driven by your "self" and your self alone. But in reality this is clearly not the case. This is the problem of freewill. Defining freewill as you have just ignores this problem all together.
Are you mentally retarded? Do you have actual issues comprehending simple English? I've literally addressed this 2/2 times in my last 2 posts. What, specifically, does it mean for your choices to be driven by "yourself"? Because all the compatibilist definition does, is say that "your self" includes your predispositions. That's it. You are disagreeing with this, and you are again and again and AGAIN babbling like a fucking retard without telling me what this "self" WOULD be.
And I'm asked you a simple fucking question. Is a truly random number generator free? Answer me you fucking moron.
Post last edited by Captain Falcon at 2017-08-16T13:10:36.628939+00:00 -
2017-08-16 at 1:23 PM UTCOf course a random number generator isn't free or an example of freewill.
I believe you know exactly what I mean by the self and the intuitive feeling that your decisions are free from outside influence. It's something everyone naturally experiences. We naturally feel as though we have absolute control over our decisions. Yet upon closer examination it is clear that our desires are choices are influenced and driven by things we have no control over. -
2017-08-16 at 1:48 PM UTC
-
2017-08-16 at 1:56 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Of course a random number generator isn't free or an example of freewill.
Why? It is uncaused, and itsd actions come from within itself.I believe you know exactly what I mean by the self and the intuitive feeling that your decisions are free from outside influence. It's something everyone naturally experiences. We naturally feel as though we have absolute control over our decisions. Yet upon closer examination it is clear that our desires are choices are influenced and driven by things we have no control over.
That's fucking horse shit. No, there is no intuitive feeling that your decisions are free from outside influence; what you are describing is simply that people do not viscerally think about these outside influences, and accept these to be predispositions. Nobody is going around thinking "I am outside of time and space and generating shit magically from nowhere". In fact, nobody can think this; the mere fact that we interact with and within systems where we don't have the absolute freedom to do, so to speak, anything in the entire universe, already makes this self evident.
It all comes back to my point, and the central assertion of compatibilism; you are your predispositions. This fits with literally everything we know about the physical world. You are the one creating a problematic, pie in the sky idea of an magic intuitive sense of self outside of causality. You literally can't even present me with a description of how this free will would function. Nobody can. It's senseless. -
2017-08-16 at 1:59 PM UTC
-
2017-08-16 at 2:18 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Why? It is uncaused, and itsd actions come from within itself.
That's fucking horse shit. No, there is no intuitive feeling that your decisions are free from outside influence; what you are describing is simply that people do not viscerally think about these outside influences, and accept these to be predispositions. Nobody is going around thinking "I am outside of time and space and generating shit magically from nowhere". In fact, nobody can think this; the mere fact that we interact with and within systems where we don't have the absolute freedom to do, so to speak, anything in the entire universe, already makes this self evident.
It all comes back to my point, and the central assertion of compatibilism; you are your predispositions. This fits with literally everything we know about the physical world. You are the one creating a problematic, pie in the sky idea of an magic intuitive sense of self outside of causality. You literally can't even present me with a description of how this free will would function. Nobody can. It's senseless.
Because freewill means you have absolute control over your decision / action. If it's truly random, it isn't possible for it to be something you had any control over whatsoever. If you know what the outcome will be, it isn't random and if you don't know what the outcome will be how can it be something you willed freely?
It isn't horseshit at all. Ask a common person if they feel they have free will or if they feel they are in control of their own behavior. Most people believe they are. It is part of being human.
I actually agree with you that your predispositions, desires, the things that drive our behaviour are an extension of ourselves. I'm sure you are aware that I believe we are all one and everything is connected in a sense. However it doesn't really feel like that most of the time. Hunger doesn't feel like something you decided or have control over, in fact you don't have control over it and it feels like something that is happening to you, something that is inflicted upon you. -
2017-08-16 at 3:04 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Because freewill means you have absolute control over your decision / action. If it's truly random, it isn't possible for it to be something you had any control over whatsoever.
Why not? The outcome certainly cannot be predetermined but it comes from within the agency of whatever system is generating it. What's the difference between me, who is supposedly predetermined (which I do believe) choosing A A A B A B A B B B B B B A A B A.... based on my predisposition, and me doing it by precommitment to a random number generator?If you know what the outcome will be, it isn't random and if you don't know what the outcome will be how can it be something you willed freely?
No matter what, it is being generated by whatever the RNG's own motive was for generating a given number. I might not be able to predict it, but that doesn't mean that the system is not outputting it based on its own motive.It isn't horseshit at all. Ask a common person if they feel they have free will or if they feel they are in control of their own behavior. Most people believe they are. It is part of being human.
And they're not wrong, because they are in control of their own behaviour. That's not what I asked and that's not what you said. You said that there is some (as yet undefined by you, because you are a bitch nigger and know that committing to a definition will end up with you getting ass raped in this discussion) idea of free will, and in the other thread, as being somehow outside of time and space and causality. No, nobody thinks that. Based on the very fact that people have predispositions and personalities, nobody believes that every time they make a decision, it's some uncaused decision that simply emerged in their brain outside of time and space.
]
The only reason why you're asserting that, is because it allows you to stall and not give a concrete description of the nature of supposedly "free" will.I actually agree with you that your predispositions, desires, the things that drive our behaviour are an extension of ourselves. I'm sure you are aware that I believe we are all one and everything is connected in a sense. However it doesn't really feel like that most of the time. Hunger doesn't feel like something you decided or have control over, in fact you don't have control over it and it feels like something that is happening to you, something that is inflicted upon you.
Why does it matter what anything feels like? And more importantly, if people "feel" like their decisions are being informed by feelings such as hunger, well shit, that's your answer; they have mechanical predispositions, and based on further stimuli, this changes and progresses and grows and what comes down from that is part of their will. Whatever goes in informs that will, and what comes out IS that will. I don't see the problem. -
2017-08-16 at 3:56 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Whatever goes in informs that will, and what comes out IS that will. I don't see the problem.
The problem is that your desire to eat is not something you chose or have any control over. How is that freedom? How is that "your" will if you didn't decide it? You can call it "you" but it doesn't feel like it. That's the whole point. -
2017-08-16 at 4:17 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind The problem is that your desire to eat is not something you chose or have any control over. How is that freedom? How is that "your" will if you didn't decide it? You can call it "you" but it doesn't feel like it. That's the whole point.
Do I have to repeat every single point 3 times to you?
How do your actions based on that desire to eat, not feel like your own actions? If you mean that the desire to eat itself doesn't feel like it's a part of you, then the answer is "duh"; but it doesn't matter, our will is composed of these factors that affect our predispositions. -
2017-08-16 at 4:52 PM UTCDo you truly believe you can choose to stop eating? Maybe you can, for awhile, if your desire to abstain from eating is greater than your desire to eat. But the point is that you are not in control. Your desires and predispositions are driving your behavior, your actions. "You" play no roll in that. How is that free will?
-
2017-08-16 at 5:13 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Do you truly believe you can choose to stop eating? Maybe you can, for awhile, if your desire to abstain from eating is greater than your desire to eat. But the point is that you are not in control. Your desires and predispositions are driving your behavior, your actions. "You" play no roll in that. How is that free will?
How the fuck does not being able to function without food = not having free will? Your desires and predispositions are a part of your free will, they inform your free will.
Once a-fucking-again, you are still acting under your own motive. -
2017-08-16 at 5:19 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon How the fuck does not being able to function without food = not having free will? Your desires and predispositions are a part of your free will, they inform your free will.
Once a-fucking-again, you are still acting under your own motive.
You are not acting under your own freewill. If I were to ask you to name a city, any city you want, whatever you decided is not through your own free will. It might feel that way, which is why everyone feels like they have freewill, but it isn't. It's completely out of your control. That's the problem of freewill. I don't understand why you are still arguing about this. What's the problem? -
2017-08-16 at 5:29 PM UTCYou should shove him down some stairs, and break his legs.
-
2017-08-16 at 5:56 PM UTCguys you dont have to fight over me, I will bone all of you equally :)
-
2017-08-16 at 6:54 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind You are not acting under your own freewill. If I were to ask you to name a city, any city you want, whatever you decided is not through your own free will. It might feel that way, which is why everyone feels like they have freewill, but it isn't. It's completely out of your control. That's the problem of freewill. I don't understand why you are still arguing about this. What's the problem?
Again, you are babbling the same thing like a retard. WHY IS IT NOT FREE WILL? WHAT WOULD A FREE BEING'S DECISION IN THE SAME CASE ENTAIL?
It is absolutely free will, because it is performed by your motive. You cannot decide your motive. But your motive decides how you act. And your motive is your motive. That's the ENTIRE POINT. -
2017-08-16 at 6:55 PM UTC
-
2017-08-16 at 7:05 PM UTClmaonnaise
-
2017-08-16 at 8:04 PM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Again, you are babbling the same thing like a retard. WHY IS IT NOT FREE WILL? WHAT WOULD A FREE BEING'S DECISION IN THE SAME CASE ENTAIL?
It is absolutely free will, because it is performed by your motive. You cannot decide your motive. But your motive decides how you act. And your motive is your motive. That's the ENTIRE POINT.
Because you are not in control of it. It's beyond your control. If I smash a rock with a hammer and it cracks in two, you are basically saying that is the freewill of the rock. If it doesn't crack in two, you are arguing that is the free will of the rock. But in reality whether or not the rock cracks has nothing to do with free will. The rock is not deciding how it will react. And neither do people. -
2017-08-16 at 8:06 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Because you are not in control of it. It's beyond your control. If I smash a rock with a hammer and it cracks in two, you are basically saying that is the freewill of the rock. If it doesn't crack in two, you are arguing that is the free will of the rock. But in reality whether or not the rock cracks has nothing to do with free will. The rock is not deciding how it will react. And neither do people.
It is not beyond your control. Your will is absolutely under your control. Your motive is your motive. You can't will what you will, but you can do what you will.
I will ask you again because you love trying to dodge this question, in your example, what would a truly free being's decision making look like? How would it differ from what we do in the real world?
