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Determinism
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2017-06-08 at 7:05 PM UTCI think I'm a determinist, I just determined.
I don't know much about it, I was just reading a bit on the subject. Do you think I am? Is something like that discernable through my posts?
What are YOU?
But yeah I basically think that we are the way we are and there is nothing we can do about it, and if we DO do something about it, that was determined by the fact that we already determined we needed to 'do something about it.'
Another way of looking at it is to look at the question- 'If you could go back to your childhood and basically have a 2nd take at life, would you?
Even if you would, that would be determined by your own mind's decision that you could have done things better, or differently. If you choose not to, this would also be determined by factors intrinsic uniquely to your mind. So, either way, you are going to always choose something that has essentially already been determined, and you're never truly making a real choice.
See this is where I need to learn, because that to me also sounds like predeterminism and I don't know how much those two can synch together.
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2017-06-08 at 7:33 PM UTC>implying we can answer this
also, the uncertainty principle -
2017-06-08 at 8:27 PM UTCI am in the free will camp. Also, if everything is determined why do we even punish criminals? They can't help it, it was destined to happen so it is unfair to punish them. Also, why should we ever aspire to anything? If we fail it was determined that we would, if we succeed same story. So why not just don't do anything at all? Because you can't go wrong in a deterministic Universe.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2017-06-08 at 8:37 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am in the free will camp. Also, if everything is determined why do we even punish criminals? They can't help it, it was destined to happen so it is unfair to punish them. Also, why should we ever aspire to anything? If we fail it was determined that we would, if we succeed same story. So why not just don't do anything at all? Because you can't go wrong in a deterministic Universe.
Because success is still a possibility.
And that's the thing in this deterministic universe is you can never know what has been determined until it happens. -
2017-06-08 at 8:58 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Another way of looking at it is to look at the question- 'If you could go back to your childhood and basically have a 2nd take at life, would you?
Even if you would, that would be determined by your own mind's decision that you could have done things better, or differently. If you choose not to, this would also be determined by factors intrinsic uniquely to your mind. So, either way, you are going to always choose something that has essentially already been determined, and you're never truly making a real choice.
See this is where I need to learn, because that to me also sounds like predeterminism and I don't know how much those two can synch together.
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What if you could go back and all your memory between the. and now is erased, woukdn't you make the exact same descisions? -
2017-06-08 at 9 PM UTC
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2017-06-08 at 9:02 PM UTC
^ Why wouldn't you? -
2017-06-08 at 9:08 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am in the free will camp. Also, if everything is determined why do we even punish criminals? They can't help it, it was destined to happen so it is unfair to punish them. Also, why should we ever aspire to anything? If we fail it was determined that we would, if we succeed same story. So why not just don't do anything at all? Because you can't go wrong in a deterministic Universe.
Freewill is not possible. Doesn't matter if the world is random, determined, or probabilistic. None of those leave any room for magical free will.
People that harm other people should be separated from the general population, not out of "punishment" but simply because it is safer for all the normal people until we can figure out how/if we can fix whatever is wrong with the criminal.
Your aspirations can affect your future behaviors just as much as doubt and depression can, along with a variety of other factors.
Have you ever tried not doing anything at all? Try it tomorrow. Just don't get out of bed. It will be extremely difficult for you to do so, if not impossible. And either way, whether you succeed or fail, has nothing to do with free will whatsoever. -
2017-06-08 at 9:10 PM UTC
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2017-06-08 at 9:13 PM UTCHere mmQ, this should interest you:
I actually read his book a couple of weeks ago. -
2017-06-08 at 9:15 PM UTCIt seems that determinism is basically inarguable from a logical standpoint. I am not sure how anyone can justify or defend indeterminism, or "free will" outside of just accepting determinism and redefining free will (compatibilism).
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2017-06-08 at 9:25 PM UTC
Originally posted by BOSS It seems that determinism is basically inarguable from a logical standpoint. I am not sure how anyone can justify or defend indeterminism, or "free will" outside of just accepting determinism and redefining free will (compatibilism).
now youre just throwing unnecessarily long words onto the screen and hoping these crack-addled retards cant understand them...staring at their screens...drooling...and nodding in agreement because theyre so fucking stupid. -
2017-06-08 at 9:28 PM UTC
Originally posted by infinityshock now youre just throwing unnecessarily long words onto the screen and hoping these crack-addled retards cant understand them…staring at their screens…drooling…and nodding in agreement because theyre so fucking stupid.
Originally posted by infinityshock I know nothing about anything and never have. most likely, never will. but I could be wrong because I usually am.
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2017-06-08 at 9:32 PM UTC
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2017-06-08 at 9:54 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Freewill is not possible. Doesn't matter if the world is random, determined, or probabilistic. None of those leave any room for magical free will.
People that harm other people should be separated from the general population, not out of "punishment" but simply because it is safer for all the normal people until we can figure out how/if we can fix whatever is wrong with the criminal.
Your aspirations can affect your future behaviors just as much as doubt and depression can, along with a variety of other factors.
Have you ever tried not doing anything at all? Try it tomorrow. Just don't get out of bed. It will be extremely difficult for you to do so, if not impossible. And either way, whether you succeed or fail, has nothing to do with free will whatsoever.
Pseudo intellectual, way to represent!
If free will is not possible, we should be able to predict human behavior with far greater accuracy by now.
Additionally, as Sophie said, people then cannot be held accountable for anything they do. Not just crimes and dangerous things - just overall being a dick. Trip someone? Cuss out a cute waitress? So? How dare society tell you any of that was wrong and try to correct you. You couldn't help it. -
2017-06-08 at 10:09 PM UTC
Originally posted by Dargo If free will is not possible, we should be able to predict human behavior
We can:By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.
The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.
“We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg,” says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.
“The results are quite dramatic,” says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime” in terms of brain activity, he adds.
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.htmlAdditionally, as Sophie said, people then cannot be held accountable for anything they do. Not just crimes and dangerous things - just overall being a dick. Trip someone? Cuss out a cute waitress? So? How dare society tell you any of that was wrong and try to correct you. You couldn't help it.
As I said to Sophie, people that harm other people should be separated from the general population, not out of "punishment" but simply because it is safer for all the normal people until we can figure out how/if we can fix whatever is wrong with the criminal.
People who are dicks should be treated appropriately, so that in the future they won't be dicks anymore. -
2017-06-08 at 10:29 PM UTC
Originally posted by Dargo If free will is not possible, we should be able to predict human behavior with far greater accuracy by now.
I know we can predict some behavior. Don't selectively edit my posts you cunt.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind As I said to Sophie, people that harm other people should be separated from the general population, not out of "punishment" but simply because it is safer for all the normal people until we can figure out how/if we can fix whatever is wrong with the criminal.
People who are dicks should be treated appropriately, so that in the future they won't be dicks anymore.
Then what do you do with people who are not perpetually violent? If a man murders his wife, chances are actually rather low he will go out and murder someone else. So, for one-time crimes, what should we do? Just have a restorative chat? They couldn't help themselves in that instance after all, and won't become repeat offenders. -
2017-06-08 at 10:43 PM UTCi have diseese also like u
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2017-06-08 at 10:45 PM UTCFrom what I understand, determinism is a perfect example of why society is the way that it is, even WITH the legal consequences of certain actions, there has always been a pattern of proportionate criminal activity. Whether we want a crime free world or not, it's pretty evident that factors already determined have become the cause to what is the ever and ongoing effect.
We are all born, unique to one another, with a brain just as unique. We have absolutely no free will regarding which brain we'd get. That is why nobody has the free will to ever become certain things, in the most base example, a severely mentally handicapped person does not have the free will to become a neurosurgeon. They can try, but their brain 100% limits them from ever reaching the necessary qualifications.
Why?
Why did that person born with that retarded brain have to be that way? They certainly didn't WANT to, so why are they? Because of determining factors in his/her parents DNA and whatever else happened during the pregnancy.
We can only accomplish what our brain has the ability to accomplish. Under that, it's determined we can only make so many potential choices, and those choices are always influenced by the (not of our own choice) wiring of our brain. It's why we have addiction, and crime, because there are those who despite all the opposing intentions are going to have one of the brains that determines they will absolutely become an addict.
Essentially, we do for the most part have free will, but what we choose will never be different than what has already been determined will be chosen given your unique brain and your circumstances. -
2017-06-08 at 10:51 PM UTC
^ So what your saying is it's both happening at the same time. Forest-Gump-ism.
