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2017-05-10 at 5:08 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie Yet, i don't have a say in what my tax money is spent on. Would it be ok if i just came to your house grabbed 200 bucks out of your wallet bought food for you for 50 dollars, then proceeded to spend the rest of the money on whatever the fuck? Of course it would not be right for me to do so, even if i spent the 200 dollars entirely on you alone. Because i don't get to decide what is right for you and what you need nor did you ever consent to me taking the money in the first place. It is morally wrong.
It must be worth it to you though. If it wasn't worth it, you would either move somewhere else, try to change the system, or you would deal with the consequences of not paying.
Now if you got to decide to give your money to some gang claiming to offer you "protection" instead of paying taxes to a government, do you get to decide what they spend it on? -
2017-05-10 at 5:12 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind It must be worth it to you though. If it wasn't worth it, you would either move somewhere else, try to change the system, or you would deal with the consequences of not paying.
There is no question of "worth it" if i put a gun to your head and rob you of all you have and let you live in return would you say: "Lol that was worth it."
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Now if you got to decide to give your money to some gang claiming to offer you "protection" instead of paying taxes to a government, do you get to decide what they spend it on?
If i got to buy private security, or pay into a mutual security fund of course i would decide what i get to spend it on. Because A) nobody is making me buy private security and B) i can fire my private security and hire another firm if my security people fuck up, or spend my contribution in a way i don't agree with. Try firing the police.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 6:04 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie There is no question of "worth it" if i put a gun to your head and rob you of all you have and let you live in return would you say: "Lol that was worth it."
If i got to buy private security, or pay into a mutual security fund of course i would decide what i get to spend it on. Because A) nobody is making me buy private security and B) i can fire my private security and hire another firm if my security people fuck up, or spend my contribution in a way i don't agree with. Try firing the police.
Are you saying that wouldn't be worth it? That isn't exactly a good metaphor, because the tax man doesn't have a gun to your head. You have options. You could move, you could try to change the system, or you could deal with the consequences (they aren't very likely to kill you for tax evasion). But you have chosen year after year to just pay your taxes. That means it's worth it.
Imagine the gang already bought up/ eliminated all their competition. They are the only ones offering "protection ", and they don't let you have any say in how they spend their money. How would that be any better than your current system?
Post last edited by Open Your Mind at 2017-05-10T18:08:30.128861+00:00 -
2017-05-10 at 6:11 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Are you saying it wouldn't be worth it that wouldn't be worth it? But that isn't exactly a good metaphor, because the tax man doesn't have a gun to your head.
No the police do. Like i've said before, what happens when you don't pay taxes? You get a letter, what if you ignore it? You get a bench warrant. What if you don't show up? They will send the goon squad(police) after you. What happens when you resist these goons? They will shoot you.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind You have options. You could move
Name one country on Earth where there is no taxes.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind you could try to change the system
It doesn't matter what i do the government will always be the government.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind or you could deal with the consequences
There should not be any consequences to begin with, that's the entire issue here.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Imagine the gang already bought up/ eliminated all theit competition.
Yeah imagine a meteor struck your face right now. Check mate statist.
I can come up with all sorts of "what if" and "imagine that" situations. That still doesn't mean taking my money without my consent is morally right.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 6:26 PM UTCThey would have a right to attempt to arrest if you were benefiting from a system you were refusing to contribute to. You don't have to be part of their system. You can move somewhere else.
Why would you have to move to another country? Go live on a mountain. Go build a space station. Go live on a boat out at sea. Or hey, maybe you enjoy living where you are so much you could actively try to change the system, and make things better.
"The Government will always be the government," lol so are you saying your ideal society is impossible? The thing you don't think even exists will always exist? There is no way for it to work in reality? I think I agree with that because even if you managed to replace government with private companies, big business will eventually take over and become the new government.
Of course there should be consequences. Do you provide services and resources to other people for free? If you are benefiting from a system, is it not fair that you contribute to that system? If someone is benefiting from the system you contribute to without contributing anything themselves, wouldn't you want them to face consequences?
Your entire idea of what an ideal society should be is nothing but "imagine this" and "imagine that". The fact is that if you benefit from a system, it's only fair you contribute to that system. If you think the system is immoral it must be worth it to you to betray your moral philosophy, because you aren't doing anything to change it and continue to contribute to and support a system you believe is immoral. -
2017-05-10 at 6:50 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind They would have a right to attempt to arrest if you were benefiting from a system you were refusing to contribute to. You don't have to be part of their system.
They have no right to do shit, i never asked for any of this.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Why would you have to move to another country? Go live on a mountain. Go build a space station. Go live on a boat out at sea. Or hey, maybe you enjoy living where you are so much you could actively try to change the system, and make things better.
The point is i shouldn't fucking have to just to avoid being stolen from.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind "The Government will always be the government," lol so are you saying your ideal society is impossible? The thing you don't think even exists will always exist? There is no way for it to work in reality?
Don't be fucking coy with me. There is no fucking way for a single person to change the system. Also it's not impossible. here are some historical precedents that very closely resemble my ideal society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents_similar_to_anarcho-capitalism
Originally posted by Open Your Mind I think I agree with that because even if you managed to replace government with private companies, big business will eventually take over and become the new government.
And you know this how? Because you think so? Dank logic bro.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Of course there should be consequences. Do you provide services and resources to other people for free? If you are benefiting from a system, is it not fair that you contribute to that system? If someone is benefiting from the system you contribute to without contributing anything themselves, wouldn't you want them to face consequences?
I never asked for any of this, it was forced on me, forcing someone to do something is always wrong, period.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Your entire idea of what an ideal society should be is nothing but "imagine this" and "imagine that". The fact is that if you benefit from a system, it's only fair you contribute to that system. If you think the system is immoral it must be worth it to you to betray your moral philosophy, because you aren't doing anything to change it and continue to contribute to and support a system you believe is immoral.
The fact is you're not even listening to anything i am saying. What my ideal society would be is backed up by reasoning. And i already told you about "the system" and being forced to contribute to it.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 7:40 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie They have no right to do shit, i never asked for any of this.
The point is i shouldn't fucking have to just to avoid being stolen from.
Don't be fucking coy with me. There is no fucking way for a single person to change the system. Also it's not impossible. here are some historical precedents that very closely resemble my ideal society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents_similar_to_anarcho-capitalism
And you know this how? Because you think so? Dank logic bro.
I never asked for any of this, it was forced on me, forcing someone to do something is always wrong, period.
The fact is you're not even listening to anything i am saying. What my ideal society would be is backed up by reasoning. And i already told you about "the system" and being forced to contribute to it.
I never asked for any of this either. However I understand that it's fair to contribute to a society that I receive benefits from. You choose to do the same. And no, if you were to choose not to contribute to the society you live in you probably should move. It isn't fair to everyone else that is contributing to that society.
Who says you have to change society all by yourself? If your position is correct it shouldn't be hard to convince the rest of society that you are correct. Then, all together, you change society. What is stopping you?
I never claimed to have any special knowledge. I imagine that in such a scenario big businesses and gangs would take over. Just like you imagine that wouldn't happen. It's up to you to convince the rest of us why your imagination is better.
Like I said earlier, you do have options. There is no literal gun to your head. You can move, change society, or deal with the consequences of not paying your taxes.
I am listening to you. I am open to what you have to say. Convince me that you are right and I will admit I am wrong. The fact is none of us chose to be where we are. You don't have to stay where you are. You can change it, accept it, or reject it and deal with the consequences. The fact that you have so far done nothing to change it and pay your taxes every year shows that you accept it, and if you accept it you must think that option is the most worthwhile option available to you. -
2017-05-10 at 7:50 PM UTC
Who says you have to change society all by yourself? If your position is correct it shouldn't be hard to convince the rest of society that you are correct. Then, all together, you change society. What is stopping you?
*sigh*
Apply this to drug policy and realize your flawed thinking. We do not live in Utopia.
Please take a couple of your buddies and convince the world that taking drugs is not a crime. I'll wait here. Thank you. -
2017-05-10 at 7:55 PM UTCThe "just move" argument is asinine.
Fortunately the tables have turned.
Don't like Trump as president and the way the nation has become?
Well, you could always...
move...
to...
(Don't say it!)
Somalia. -
2017-05-10 at 7:57 PM UTC
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2017-05-10 at 8:07 PM UTCGod, I absolutely despise leftism and their arguments. And the unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of people are authoritarian statists to the core who will never change.
Fuck this world. I really do hope something similar one day arises.
Sophie, are you aware of this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Economic_Development_(Honduras)
IIRC some important people from the Cato institute and other libertarians were working on it. Unfortunately Honduras is incredibly violent/dangerous and a pretty shitty place to live.
Who knows what future developments there may be, maybe seasteading will take off in a decade.
Have you also read about Liechtenstein? It's a fascinating country. Do a search for it on r/ancap or The Mises Institute, some libertarian website or keywords. What's really interesting is that Hans Hermann Hoppe is actually allegedly close friends with the king and strongly influenced his policies. If you read about what their laws are like, you'll see how brilliant it is. Possibly the most libertarian country on earth, and the closest towards moving toward anarcho-capitalism. Unfortunately due to the way the world is you have to have a government and ruler to be recognized and avoid being invaded because statists are fucking cunts that can't just let you live in peace and at least try to experiment with radically alternative different means of societal organization.
You know what, you're angry as hell like I am, and you're also brilliant, hard working, and have enormous perseverance. Your knowledge of chemistry is useful.
Do me a favor, if you ever feel like you're at the end of your rope and have reached the breaking point don't pull a McVeigh or Killdozer in a strategic manner targeting the people/buildings that deserve it the most.
Hi feds. Just trying to warn someone not to go down a dark path in life and do something so unethical. I'm practically a saint.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 8:11 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Do you think paying taxes is worth it?
Fuck no it isn't. Do you feel proud that so much of your money, especially in the US, has gone towards killing millions of civilians, ruining lives, countless nations, incarceration, abuse etc?
As for the poor, they're mainly poor because of economic illiteracy, policies that drive up cost of living, mainly housing and food, through the roof, and land use/zoning policies in major metropolitan cities. Read the book "The Gated City" to see how much damage the latter causes. "The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose bad Policies" is another must read, and it was named by the New York Times (hate them) as one of the most important books of the year when it came out.
There are alternative ways of funding everything the government does, and life wouldn't be that different for most people once things developed properly. Just admit it, almost none of you are willing to the amount of reading that me and Sophie have, along with countless others. So just keep believing in your statist fantasies and hoping that one day the perfect people who agree with you on everything will somehow magically be voted into power, free from corruption, everyone who disagrees with you will change, and we'll all hold hands and sing kumbaya happily ever after. Let me know when it happens, because right now you would have to be incredibly oblivious to believe that the vast majority of people on earth live under statist systems that are incredibly destructive and horrendous.
Post last edited by Malice at 2017-05-10T20:14:22.143834+00:00The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 8:12 PM UTCDepends on the model. Here in Germany it definitely isn't. I lose about 50% of my income to taxes. I used to buy 1g TPAIN for 10 bucks, now I only pay 5 but on the box it says 55,89. They claim that's what those pills are worth but hey I pay 24.7%(?) healthcare taxes so I only have to pay 5€ extra instead of the full price. That those 25% are about 1k and I could buy a fucking kilo 99% pure TPAIN with it is irrelevantt, right?
I mean I have to think about the other people who are also getting robbed instead of choosing freely what they do with their money, right? Like, for example all the Bill Krozbyes of the world and the 90 year olds on 12 machines in hospitals.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-05-10 at 8:16 PM UTCMy employer also pays the same amount in taxes for me by the way so the healthcare system ramps up the price for TPAIN by about 2000%. You think that's ok?
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2017-05-10 at 8:22 PM UTCHere in the US TPAIN is unscheduled and pretty fucking cheap: https://newmind.com/T-PAIN-free-acid-10-g.html
Freedom and voluntary cooperation work pretty well, IMO. -
2017-05-10 at 8:27 PM UTCThe FDA banned Picamilon, though. Why does nobody care about that? The stuff is awesome.
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2017-05-10 at 8:40 PM UTC
Originally posted by Malice God, I absolutely despise leftism and their arguments. And the unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of people are authoritarian statists to the core who will never change.
Fuck this world. I really do hope something similar one day arises.
Sophie, are you aware of this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_for_Employment_and_Economic_Development_(Honduras)
IIRC some important people from the Cato institute and other libertarians were working on it. Unfortunately Honduras is incredibly violent/dangerous and a pretty shitty place to live.
Who knows what future developments there may be, maybe seasteading will take off in a decade.
Have you also read about Liechtenstein? It's a fascinating country. Do a search for it on r/ancap or The Mises Institute, some libertarian website or keywords. What's really interesting is that Hans Hermann Hoppe is actually allegedly close friends with the king and strongly influenced his policies. If you read about what their laws are like, you'll see how brilliant it is. Possibly the most libertarian country on earth, and the closest towards moving toward anarcho-capitalism. Unfortunately due to the way the world is you have to have a government and ruler to be recognized and avoid being invaded because statists are fucking cunts that can't just let you live in peace and at least try to experiment with radically alternative different means of societal organization.
You know what, you're angry as hell like I am, and you're also brilliant, hard working, and have enormous perseverance. Your knowledge of chemistry is useful.
Do me a favor, if you ever feel like you're at the end of your rope and have reached the breaking point don't pull a McVeigh or Killdozer in a strategic manner targeting the people/buildings that deserve it the most.
Hi feds. Just trying to warn someone not to go down a dark path in life and do something so unethical. I'm practically a saint.
Don't worry i don't intend to murder/suicide any time soon but i appreciate the sentiment. And i have not read about Liechtenstein, but i have heard about the economic development zone. It's a neat idea, but like you said Honduras is pretty shit. -
2017-05-10 at 8:54 PM UTC
Originally posted by RisiR † Depends on the model. Here in Germany it definitely isn't. I lose about 50% of my income to taxes. I used to buy 1g TPAIN for 10 bucks, now I only pay 5 but on the box it says 55,89. They claim that's what those pills are worth but hey I pay 24.7%(?) healthcare taxes so I only have to pay 5€ extra instead of the full price. That those 25% are about 1k and I could buy a fucking kilo 99% pure TPAIN with it is irrelevantt, right?
I mean I have to think about the other people who are also getting robbed instead of choosing freely what they do with their money, right? Like, for example all the Bill Krozbyes of the world and the 90 year olds on 12 machines in hospitals.
I don't disagree with you, or with Sophie for that matter. But it's kinda funny to see someone ranting on about how taxation is theft, yet they still pay their taxes and don't try to change anything. Like, what is the point in identifying with a particular philosophy online if you behave in a completely opposite way in real life? -
2017-05-10 at 8:56 PM UTC
Originally posted by Malice Fuck no it isn't. Do you feel proud that so much of your money, especially in the US, has gone towards killing millions of civilians, ruining lives, countless nations, incarceration, abuse etc?
As for the poor, they're mainly poor because of economic illiteracy, policies that drive up cost of living, mainly housing and food, through the roof, and land use/zoning policies in major metropolitan cities. Read the book "The Gated City" to see how much damage the latter causes. "The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose bad Policies" is another must read, and it was named by the New York Times (hate them) as one of the most important books of the year when it came out.
There are alternative ways of funding everything the government does, and life wouldn't be that different for most people once things developed properly. Just admit it, almost none of you are willing to the amount of reading that me and Sophie have, along with countless others. So just keep believing in your statist fantasies and hoping that one day the perfect people who agree with you on everything will somehow magically be voted into power, free from corruption, everyone who disagrees with you will change, and we'll all hold hands and sing kumbaya happily ever after. Let me know when it happens, because right now you would have to be incredibly oblivious to believe that the vast majority of people on earth live under statist systems that are incredibly destructive and horrendous.
Post last edited by Malice at 2017-05-10T20:14:22.143834+00:00
You've got life figured out, Mal. You don't pay taxes, leech off of society, and amzingly enough the police aren't even coming to shoot you in the face.
I will admit I'm not willing to read as much as you have on the topic, however I will also admit that I am open to your point of view if you are willing to explain why it is best. Also don't call me a statist, I am not committed to any particular stance on this topic.
Post last edited by Open Your Mind at 2017-05-10T20:59:52.988681+00:00 -
2017-05-10 at 9:40 PM UTCnigger
