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How The Venetian Doge Was Elected, And What Modern Democracies Can Learn From It.

  1. #1
    Kingoftoes Tuskegee Airman
    "The Venetian Doge was elected through a complex, multi-stage process designed to prevent corruption and ensure fairness. Here’s a summary:

    Initial Selection: The Great Council randomly chose 30 men, reduced to 9 by lot, to act as initial electors.

    Elector Selection: The 9 electors chose 40 men, reduced to 12 by lot. This pattern repeated (selecting groups of 25, 9, 45, then 11) until 41
    final electors were chosen.

    Final Election: The 41 electors selected the Doge, requiring a majority of 25 votes.

    Public Approval: The elected Doge was inaugurated and presented to the public at St. Mark’s Square."

    - Chat GPT

    Obviously, this form of election took place before the internet, and also before the printing press. This form of democratic election is quite different than what we have had for the past century or so.

    Now, in the months approaching elections, you are bombarded with information about each candidate. Everything from their policy decisions, their speeches, and their scandals are published and practically force fed down the average (Insert "Western Democracy" here) citizen's gullet until they grow sick.

    Because of this, you know a LOT about what candidate you are voting (or not voting) for. From their aforementioned scandals and policy decisions, all the way down to unimportant information not even worthy of a footnote, such as a candidate's wife, how many kids they have, how well they play golf, etc.

    As us fellow humans (surprise!) tend to perceive characteristics of a candidate, process them with archaic heuristics, and treat them as indicators of qualities that are desirable in a politician (Trump is a businessman, he must be good with money), we inherently fall short of having a good idea of what a candidate's term in office will do for the nation.

    This is a major pitfall of Democracies. As the modern voter is inundated not only with information, but with daily life, and, while attempting to be rational, falls short nearly every time. This partially causes elections to turn into popularity contests. Many candidates get pushed aside because the general public only ingests information from a numerical minority of parties, which simultaneously have the most funding.

    Here is where it all comes back around (I think chieftain Trump calls this the WEAVE). Because these candidates receive enormous amounts of funding, which helps them get elected, once they get in to office, they can use their newly acquired power to create mutually beneficial agreements with business men. A good example of this is the "revolving door" in US politics, where lobbyists/ corporate "higher-ups" move between positions in the US government and corporate positions.

    As I have presented here in rudimentary, drunken-old-man fashion, this issue stems at least partially from the transparency of modern democracies. You know exactly who is working for whom, and can lobby, bribe, and make deals to achieve power. This is obviously a problem in politics.

    I believe that making democracy in the west more opaque would help to create a bulwark against the perpetuation of this "revolving door" (you are just now realizing this is about the USA?). Creating a system where, in order to be elected for a government position, you have to pass through multiple councils and organizations would (at least in theory) help to prevent bribery and lobbying by simply making it less effective and more costly. If you have to lobby multiple councils instead of just 1 (called congress), it not only makes it more expensive monetarily, but is more time consuming, and because of this, is a greater risk than just lobbying a few organizations.

    Discuss.
  2. #2
    ner vegas African Astronaut
    so basically random sampling of representatives instead of elected representation, because the electoral process is notoriously corrupt.

    I think any kind of 'opaque' system is going to be more open to manipulation than a transparent one, and it's not transparency that is the real problem.



    one major problem with modern liberal (capitalist) democracy is that the political and economic power bases are meant to be kept separate but power in one creates an advantage in the other so they inevitably become tangled together. there's no feasible way to prevent economic interests interfering with social/political ones short of folding the two into one heirarchy like socialism or fascism does outside of brutal enforcement strictly to the letter of a constitution without any room for reinterpretation.

    "what you can imagine is based on what you know"

    another big problem is that in any system where a general population votes, the process can be manipulated by controlling access to information. the traditional method is censorship but it's clumsy and brutal; people in Soviet states for example came to understand that they were being denied access to information and acted accordingly - there was no trust in major media apparatus and 'forbidden' information and viewpoints were distributed covertly.

    the more modern and insidious method is 'nudging', originally detailed by Edward Bernays (I think) and others in the field of group psychology. instead of trying to directly control access to information (except in extreme cases such as 'national security' of course), the goal is to control what information and viewpoints are 'acceptable'. it's what the massive push on 'misinformation' and 'disinformation' is about, and before that the label 'conspiracy theory' - certain ideas are marked as outside of polite discourse and effectively excluded from general social consciousness.


    tl;dr:

    - transparency is good, removing it will not improve things
    - one major problem is personal economic incentive to vote against one's group interests
    - another is that media saturation allows voting to be manipulated by controlling access to information
    - universal suffrage is fake, gay and retarded
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  3. #3
    The average voter has almost no information at all about the candidate they are voting for, just the drivel that is presented to them in the media. The media decide the winner of elections - or at least they try to.
    The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
  4. #4
    Grimace motherfucker [my enumerable hindi guideword]
    Originally posted by πŸ¦„πŸŒˆ MORALLY SUPERIOR BEING - vaxxed and octoboosted πŸ’‰ (we beat covid!) πŸ‘¬πŸ’•πŸ‘­πŸ€ (🍩✊) The average voter has almost no information at all about the candidate they are voting for, just the drivel that is presented to them in the media. The media decide the winner of elections - or at least they try to.

    This. Especially in America, but likely elsewhere, too.
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