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Communication: how to win verbal fights and get what you're owed

  1. #1
    oatking Yung Blood
    Original title: Communication skills are important

    I'm a bit drunk, but hopefully it will only add to the magnificence of this piece. I want to tell you guys about how fucking important it is to be able to argue your point. Most people can't do it and fuck up negotiating a salary, getting promoted, or get swindled by a store/credit card company/online seller, etc.

    Now, I'm no expert at this. I'm not a lawyer or a radio talk show host. I can't think up and fire off "negs" like someone from the projects. But this shit will happen to you, especially if you fall into both of these categories:

    1. socially retarded
    2. high skilled labor

    I think it's because the first one is seen as a weakness and the second one is just too tempting to pass up for a greedy MBA fuckwit. So you gotta know how to guard against this. Here's a story, that I've mangled a bit to make it more anonymous.

    I was doing work for a client, let's call him Al. It was a short project, about 6 weeks of part time work worth roughly 12k (pre tax :(). We got it done, shook hands, and parted. Al handed the finished project to a junior manager, Liz. Now, Liz thought that the project was missing a bunch of stuff but couldn't get any budget to hire someone to add this stuff. Here decision? She contacted me and right off the bat told me that <list of missing stuff> was in the scope of the project and unless I finish this by <deadline one week away>, they're taking me to court.

    I was so pissed that my hands were shaking, so I waited for about 4 hours to cool down. I then requested a detailed <list of missing stuff> and she got that back to me along with a threat of needing my decision by some ridiculous hour like 8am. I thanked her.

    Next, I proceeded to collect every piece communication between me and Al and me and Liz. I collected everything into text files or screenshots and I had this handy.

    Then I emailed Al and his boss simply asking for help in this matter along with a few examples of signed-off work that I did, the original scope of work, and items from the <list of missing stuff>. I also asked them flatly that if they wanted all of these things done, why didn't they just ask in the first? Why should we be going to court over this? I can refer them to a friend that can work on this project. I also stated that I don't think this is right and if they want to go to court, then I'll oblige them.

    Al responds back, adding Liz to the recipients, that he thinks this is a mistake and asking Liz to provide anything to back up her point. Liz can't reply - she and Al are in different timezones. Everything ends well and everyone lives happily every after, except Liz, who got put on a PIP and fired.

    Here's the story broken down into actionable points:

    1. CALM DOWN. If you're an aspie, this is super hard to do, but you can exercise this like any skill.
    2. CYA - cover your ass. Be courteous, collect evidence, insist on email communication (paper trail), ask for clarification, but don't counter attack yet. Your opponent thinks you're bleeding out, so they might threaten you once more and/or put their guard down (go to sleep, go on vacation, etc.)
    3. Look at the evidence and figure out your narrative and get in touch with someone higher then your opponent. Here I played the "old business relationship, who's sad that it's come to this" card, but I also drew a line in the sand "this isn't right, I'm not doing this". You don't want to go overboard - you cannot let yourself be perceived as a raving lunatic, shouting about unions, lady liberty, etc. Also, keep your communication short - stick to the essentials. It's better to talks less than blabber out something that'll bite you later. Also, AVOID saying things like "maybe", "seems", "perhaps", "I assume" - these make you look week and uncertain about your position. Hell, it probably DOES mean you're uncertain about your position.
    4. Offer an easy way out for them (Al and his boss). This is where I offered to put them in touch with a friend and where I acted confused about this ending up in court. This is a way for them to save time and face. The flip side is that they will have to sacrifice your opponent :).
    5. Wait for them to duke it out amongst themselves. Thank them for their help and offer to meet for drinks some time in the future.

    This approach can be used when you're dealing with customer service, bureaucrats, a toxic coworker, a loud neighbor, and lots of other situations. DO NOT use this approach when you're in court, when you're stopped by the police, when you're talking with lawyers, gang members, or if you're not calm. This approach only works well when you can leverage the organization that's wronged you (or its allies) to attack an opponent that's part of this organization. You can't do this with lawyers - they'll talk you into your own grave. You can't do this with a gang - they'll just shoot you. Also, don't use this scorched earth approach to negotiations. Negotiation is a million times more subtle.

    So, once again:

    1. Get calm and stay calm. The person who loses their shit - loses.
    2. Cover your ass. Get as much in writing as possible. If not possible, check the privacy laws in your state/country to see if you can record the other person (voice, video) without their consent (in the US there's a a lot of single-side consent states, so only one side - you - need to consent to recording anything).
    3. Using the above step, ensure that you're in a good position. If you mention court, make sure you can follow up on that threat.
    3a. NEVER show uncertainty. Never use the words that I mention above: "maybe", "seems", "assume", "perhaps", "I think". Something IS or IT'S NOT.
    4. Put pressure on your opponent, often quoting their words back at them, but show a soft side and offer a way out to their superiors. For example, catch and inconsistencies in your opponents arguments and focus on them. Then, to their boss, say that you're sure everything will clarify once we straighten out all the facts.
    5. Try to use any communication obstacles to your advantage. Data mine your opponent to see - maybe they're in a different time zone? Maybe they just moved? Maybe they're out of the office? Try to be first to contact their boss and introduce a delay before they can respond. You want your opponent to become a weight, an obstacle, something that makes their boss come in to work and think "for fucks sake, I can't do an honest day's worth of work without having to babysit this fucker".
    6. Don't say too much. Using email, outside from leaving a paper trail (esp. if you RE and FWD ALL THE THINGS), gives you time to reposition yourself and attack strategically.

    How do you actually run with this? It's pretty hard. In my case, it evolved from flame wars on internet forums. It's pure rhetoric - nobody cares about the fucking facts. You'll dissect your opponent's posts into 10 parts and argue each part separately. You'll call in your bros into the thread - which is like 20 pages long at this point. You'll post citations to back up your logic and your opponent will do the same, but no one will even click on that. You'll be digging up their posts from 20 pages ago to point out how retarded they are for being inconsistent.

    That's a good starting point I guess. Another part is, even if you're an aspie, you gotta make sure you can voice your thoughts. Take that speech class in college. Print out a speech (Obama has some good ones) and go to an abandoned area and just practice it for a few days. Get used to using your voice. Get used to speaking slower and louder than you normally do. The awesome thing is, this gives you a lot of confidence in all other areas of life.

    Some people have had a lot of success after joining Toastmasters clubs, but I've never tried that. I'd do it though.

    Look for small situations in real life when you can assert yourself. Buy something at best buy (worst buy, lol) and return it. Call your landlord and get them to fix some silly ass thing. Small stuff like that.

    Finally, be on alert for situations in which you can really exercise this shit. Did you get scammed on amazon? Maybe your phone bill is too high? You can't practice this shit if you're not on the look out for natural situations in which to practice this. Just go for it!

    Also, use this for good. If you get a good guy at best buy helping you out, don't fuck up his day. But if you get some lazy asshole - just steamroll them.

    Last but not least, some reading material for y'all hobos:

    "Bargaining for Advantage" - https://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-Strategies-Reasonable/dp/0143036971 - AMAZING book that really sets up a framework for negotiating things. This book introduces a subtle, complex, and layered approach this. Something you wanna use when you're negotiating a salary or your mortgage - for win-win situations. Everything I wrote above is based on this framework, except taken to the extreme and reserved for win-scorched earth situations.

    "SJWs Always Lie" - great book that describes how you don't need logic to win arguments - just pure rhetoric, raw emotion. It also says why logic fails in these situations and the only tool is rhetoric. Also, pretty good reading about SJWs.

    "Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion" - good book too, although very dry. Combines well with the first one.

    Well, I'm almost sober. Dammit. Hope this helps one of you aspie fucks.

  2. #2
    Do hard drugs and you are never wrong, your brain will trick itself into always being right.
  3. #3
    Sophie Pedophile Tech Support
    You remind me of Mike Cernovich, for some reason. That's a good thing btw.
  4. #4
    oatking Yung Blood
    You remind me of Mike Cernovich, for some reason. That's a good thing btw.

    I looked him up, I... don't know how to feel about this. Maybe I came off as one of those internet tough guys or a self help guru, dunno, but this shit really works for me. Part of me is really god damn tired of MBA cunts asking me to work for equity (ie. make believe money) and you can only say NO so many times before you punch someone. Maybe it's the curse of being interested in something that generates lots of money? Like shit, I could just spend all day at home and mess around with C or Python or some shit, but now there's a bunch of greedy sonuvabitches that are willing to lie, cheat, and scam just in order to get some free labor.

    Also, what do you think of my advice? I know it's not T&T related, but I wanted to give back something to the community
  5. #5
    Sophie Pedophile Tech Support
    I looked him up, I… don't know how to feel about this. Maybe I came off as one of those internet tough guys or a self help guru, dunno, but this shit really works for me. Part of me is really god damn tired of MBA cunts asking me to work for equity (ie. make believe money) and you can only say NO so many times before you punch someone. Maybe it's the curse of being interested in something that generates lots of money? Like shit, I could just spend all day at home and mess around with C or Python or some shit, but now there's a bunch of greedy sonuvabitches that are willing to lie, cheat, and scam just in order to get some free labor.

    Also, what do you think of my advice? I know it's not T&T related, but I wanted to give back something to the community

    My interests are broader than compsci and it's good advice. Especially for people that aren't as socially equipped as some of us. It's important to be assertive in any kind of business relationship, also, thanks for wanting to give back to the community. It's in line with the spirit of what Totse and Zoklet stood for and that's never a bad thing.
  6. #6
    bling bling Dark Matter
    if u dont wanna read op this is wat he sais

    1. debate me fam
    .2 jst do a speech bro
    3. jst b urself
  7. #7
    This was a picture of how to win every argument but Google is a bunch of faggots.

    Saying "you don't scare me" gives similar results.
  8. #8
    Sophie Pedophile Tech Support
    also this


    4cuck should learn that an ad hominem and name calling are basically the same.
  9. #9
    4cuck should learn that an ad hominem and name calling are basically the same.


    Yeah all they are is niggers and jedis, mainstream censorship bitches that don't give a fuck about their user base. I can't even post that smug anime face without it fucking up. Archived thread my ass. What a bunch of faggots. Google too.
  10. #10
    Lanny Bird of Courage
    So I just googled Mike Cernovich. Is this a joke? Holy shit, just reading some of the pages on this dude's site I'm honestly unsure if he's a parody of shitty self-help bullshit or not. It hits every major point I can think of.

    Shitty poorly understood and decontextualized philosophy quote? Check.
    It's a Nietzsche quote? Check.
    Endless rambling about strength training? Check.
    Overly reductive poor understanding of evolutionary theory? Check.
    Uses the term "beta male" unironically? Check.
    Fox news appearance? Hey, that's just above and beyond the call of cringe-lordery

    This guy is actually like a notch above retardation and I don't understand why seemingly smart people would like him beyond his comedic value
  11. #11
    Sophie Pedophile Tech Support
    So I just googled Mike Cernovich. Is this a joke? Holy shit, just reading some of the pages on this dude's site I'm honestly unsure if he's a parody of shitty self-help bullshit or not. It hits every major point I can think of.

    Shitty poorly understood and decontextualized philosophy quote? Check.
    It's a Nietzsche quote? Check.
    Endless rambling about strength training? Check.
    Overly reductive poor understanding of evolutionary theory? Check.
    Uses the term "beta male" unironically? Check.
    Fox news appearance? Hey, that's just above and beyond the call of cringe-lordery

    This guy is actually like a notch above retardation and I don't understand why seemingly smart people would like him beyond his comedic value

    Ayyyyyyy lmao. I didn't tell you to read his book. He is MASTER TROLLER and Trump shill extraordinair on Twitter and other alt media. He periscopes and goes to places to cause a ruckus. Also, whenever he appears on anything, he acts over the top confident, which i can appreciate.

    He was banned from TV a while ago i think i read somewhere lel.
  12. #12
    oatking Yung Blood
    So I just googled Mike Cernovich. Is this a joke? Holy shit, just reading some of the pages on this dude's site I'm honestly unsure if he's a parody of shitty self-help bullshit or not. It hits every major point I can think of.

    Shitty poorly understood and decontextualized philosophy quote? Check.
    It's a Nietzsche quote? Check.
    Endless rambling about strength training? Check.
    Overly reductive poor understanding of evolutionary theory? Check.
    Uses the term "beta male" unironically? Check.
    Fox news appearance? Hey, that's just above and beyond the call of cringe-lordery

    This guy is actually like a notch above retardation and I don't understand why seemingly smart people would like him beyond his comedic value

    Awww man, now I feel bad cause Sophie compared me to this Mike guy. What do you think about my adviceors, Lanny?
  13. #13
    Sophie Pedophile Tech Support
    Awww man, now I feel bad cause Sophie compared me to this Mike guy. What do you think about my adviceors, Lanny?

    It wasn't meant as an insult <3
  14. #14
    oatking Yung Blood
    It wasn't meant as an insult <3

    I know, you're kewlzzz bro. But I'm afraid Lanny thinks less of me now, if at all.

    Also, I kinda agree with the fact that society is becoming too feminized. But maybe that's because I hate SJWs and their complete domination of the emotional sphere of life. I kinda see the manosphere as a counterforce to SJW and while it too is filled with despicable people, at least it's not attacking the very foundations of modern society ie. procedural justice, freedom of speech, etc.
  15. #15
    I know, you're kewlzzz bro. But I'm afraid Lanny thinks less of me now, if at all.

    Also, I kinda agree with the fact that society is becoming too feminized. But maybe that's because I hate SJWs and their complete domination of the emotional sphere of life. I kinda see the manosphere as a counterforce to SJW and while it too is filled with despicable people, at least it's not attacking the very foundations of modern society ie. procedural justice, freedom of speech, etc.

    http://xahlee.org/p/um/um-s04.html

    [FONT=sans-serif][SIZE=14px]Psychologists use the term “socialization” to designate the process by which children are trained to think and act as society demands. A person is said to be well socialized if he believes in and obeys the moral code of his society and fits in well as a functioning part of that society. It may seem senseless to say that many leftists are over-socialized, since the leftist is perceived as a rebel. Nevertheless, the position can be defended. Many leftists are not such rebels as they seem.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=sans-serif][SIZE=14px]The moral code of our society is so demanding that no one can think, feel and act in a completely moral way. For example, we are not supposed to hate anyone, yet almost everyone hates somebody at some time or other, whether he admits it to himself or not. Some people are so highly socialized that the attempt to think, feel and act morally imposes a severe burden on them. In order to avoid feelings of guilt, they continually have to deceive themselves about their own motives and find moral explanations for feelings and actions that in reality have a non-moral origin. We use the term “oversocialized” to describe such people.[/SIZE][/FONT]
  16. #16
    Merlin Houston
    How To Win Friends and Influence by Dale Carnegie is also good for day to day politics. Although a lot of advice his advice is very passive and would make you look like a flip flopping idiot if the other person called your bluff.

    I definitely wish my public speaking was on par with my writing. I've considered going to bars and standing up to give Hitler tier bier hall speeches.
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