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Hunter and Joe's Adventures in the Ukraine
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2019-10-03 at 3:30 AM UTCAs the enormous bulk of the western corporate media has had a laser focus on whether Donald Turnip did anything wrong in asking Ukrainian President Zelensky to either release or reopen a previously-shelved investigation into Joe Biden's son Hunter, I think it's worth digging into what was going on that was being investigated in the first place. The information on this matter is DENSE AS FUCK so I'll try to keep it concise.
Back in 2015, US Vice President Joe Biden pressured the notoriously corrupt Ukrainian then-President Petro "Porky" Poroshenko into firing his chief prosecutor, Viktor Shokin. He'd made it a condition of the release of roughly $1 billion in IMF loans and openly bragged about it after the fact. The question that's been brought to the fore is why Biden desperately wanted that prosecutor fired - with the two sides in the US arguing over whether Viktor was fired for being 'too soft' on corruption, or whether he was fired for investigating the 'wrong kind' of corruption, namely Joe Biden's son Hunter and his activities relating to the Ukrainian gas company Burisma.
Viktor himself made a statement on his 'firing' (he was forced to voluntarily resign). While Porky admitted to him that he was being forced out due to pressure from Joe, the official reason given was that the prosecutor's office had 'lost the public's trust', which is an extremely ironic thing to come out of Porky's mouth given his abysmal approval ratings.
Viktor goes on to say that he strongly believes his dismissal was tied to an ongoing investigation into Burisma Holdings, where Joe's son Hunter had been hired as a salaried board member (not an investor). He reports that on several occasions Porky had asked him to either reduce the scope of or end investigations entirely.
“In my conversations with Poroshenko at the time, he was emphatic that I should cease my investigations regarding Burisma. When I did not, he said that the U.S. were refusing to release the USD$ 1 billion promised to Ukraine. He said that he had no choice.”
Assuming that he was telling the whole truth, the question then becomes, what was actually going on at Burisma, and was Hunter actually doing anything wrong?
Burisma changed hands a lot in the early 2010s, but it's difficult to trace - according to anti-corruption efforts at the time, the government was obfuscating ownership information of most of the larger companies and holders of rights to natural resources, specifically coal and LPG. From what could be gleaned, there was an 'official' owner and a 'real' owner who was not publicly affiliated with the company, typically someone who was either politically connected (often the Maidan-deposed Yanukovych’s family) or one of the longstanding oligarchs.
You can read about it yourself in a link I'll include at the bottom, but the best guess as to who really owned Burisma was the infamous Ihor Kolomoisky. The Zlochevskys, who the Western media largely paints as the owners of Burisma, founded the company but later (prior to Hunter's appointment) sold all of their shares to Kolomoisky's Privat Group. This is important because Kolomoisky is deeply involved in Ukrainian politics, financing both Porky and Zelenksy in no small measure. Digging too deeply into Burisma would lead directly to the President's boss.
This is important to the Biden question because Kolomoisky is a jedi. About as jediy as they come really, which makes his control of Burisma a difficult optic in the highly fascistic order that crystallised after the Maidan - most of the volunteer battalions that Kolomoisky himself raised were ultranationalist groups who were fashioned after - and idolised - the UPA, a pro-nazi Ukrainian organisation that operated during WWII. As a result, it seems that he tried to transform the image of Burisma to that of an American organisation, going so far as to appoint a conveyor belt of American businessmen to the board, such as Hunter Biden among others (many of whom were connected to other US politicians). Hunter and his (business) partner, Devon Archer, were reportedly paid around $3 million for their year of 'service'.
I'm getting bored so I'll just summarise the rest:
1. The main reason Viktor was fired appears not to be related to Biden specifically, but that he was originally directed to investigate Burisma in order to go after Zlochevsky, who was connected to the deposed (Pro-Russian) government of Yanukovych. He started to follow the trail to Kolomoisky, who is connected to the coup-imposed (Pro-US) government of Poroshenko, and US foreign policy could not allow one of their most important domestic supporters to fall under a federal corruption investigation.
2. Kolomoisky is well-known for large-scale corruption; in some circumstances he's used military operations as a pretext to clear inhabitants from land in order to start fracturing and oil-drilling operations.
3. FuckThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-10-03 at 3:50 AM UTC1. You didn't mention Kolomoisky is basically the only oligarch who backed zelensky from the jump from tv to president
2. I don't think porkys approval ratings were that bad back in 2015. The rounds of IMF funding were tied to reforms and the US funding was known to of course be contingent, whether it was based on a prosecutor or not is just one thing, but it is extremely suspect Joe Biden specifically asked for a prosecutor in the notoriously corrupt Ukraine to be fired. Porky was a literal CIA asset according to released diplomatic cables, it's kind of insane they would even have to ask him twice to fire someone.
3. Of course Viktor would say he was targeted because of that. He also probably targeted Bursima holdings because of someone else telling him to do so to gain leverage over Joe Biden.
4. The issue of whether or not Hunter Biden was doing shady stuff in Ukraine will never be proven in the public record (he definitely was) and neither will a video tape of Joe Biden winking, nodding, looking shady and emphatically saying "I want this prosecutor fired because I'm worried he might end up charging my son with something"
4 again. Trump still got ratted on overtly saying sketchy and stupid things during a really bad time and it looks really bad because he's really bad at being president. This is what people will remember he's a fucking idiot and is just mad at the guy who ratted now. Now Pomeo is dragged into it too and America loses so much face you wonder if it can continue with so much greatness
5. what do you think of Trump asking your PM about the origins of the Mueller report? Why would he even think they'd have an idea? They're all part of the same 5 eyes, do they not have anyone in Britain? -
2019-10-03 at 4:03 AM UTCalso, zelensky has a Putinish approval rating rn and can't prosecute hunter Biden now because then he'll look beholden to Trump. He's going to throw Trump under the bus to look like he's fighting corruption in literal America. He's going to turn that goodwill into enriching his pockets a bit and probably trying earnestly to make the country less shitty and corrupt, he's going to go soft on the East, to the breakaway regions benefit (and everyone involved) and Putin is going to take advantage because he's a chess player. He's actually a really good president for Ukraine rn, he's kind of ineffectual but it remains to be seen how badly he will be corrupted by Ukraines political and financial spheres
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2019-10-03 at 4:44 AM UTCPosting in a gay thread.
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2019-10-03 at 5:36 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sudo 1. You didn't mention Kolomoisky is basically the only oligarch who backed zelensky from the jump from tv to president
2. I don't think porkys approval ratings were that bad back in 2015. The rounds of IMF funding were tied to reforms and the US funding was known to of course be contingent, whether it was based on a prosecutor or not is just one thing, but it is extremely suspect Joe Biden specifically asked for a prosecutor in the notoriously corrupt Ukraine to be fired. Porky was a literal CIA asset according to released diplomatic cables, it's kind of insane they would even have to ask him twice to fire someone.
3. Of course Viktor would say he was targeted because of that. He also probably targeted Bursima holdings because of someone else telling him to do so to gain leverage over Joe Biden.
4. The issue of whether or not Hunter Biden was doing shady stuff in Ukraine will never be proven in the public record (he definitely was) and neither will a video tape of Joe Biden winking, nodding, looking shady and emphatically saying "I want this prosecutor fired because I'm worried he might end up charging my son with something"
4 again. Trump still got ratted on overtly saying sketchy and stupid things during a really bad time and it looks really bad because he's really bad at being president. This is what people will remember he's a fucking idiot and is just mad at the guy who ratted now. Now Pomeo is dragged into it too and America loses so much face you wonder if it can continue with so much greatness
5. what do you think of Trump asking your PM about the origins of the Mueller report? Why would he even think they'd have an idea? They're all part of the same 5 eyes, do they not have anyone in Britain?
1. I didn't know he was the only one, just that he was the primary one. There have long been rumours that Porky and Tymoshenko have a coup planned against him but I doubt it for now at least.
2. they've always been bad lol. I dunno, perhaps Viktor was connected to someone important so Porky didn't want to take a hard line against him - a lot of other people got disappeared for less.
3/4 - Agree pretty much on all counts
5. My guess is that the British intelligence agencies are working against him and our PM injected himself into the situation like the enormous bootlick he is. I don't really know what he could offer in this regard though, except for acutely homoerotic emotional support
Originally posted by Gulm Posting in a gay thread.
it wasn't until you got hereThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-10-03 at 5:47 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sudo also, zelensky has a Putinish approval rating rn and can't prosecute hunter Biden now because then he'll look beholden to Trump. He's going to throw Trump under the bus to look like he's fighting corruption in literal America. He's going to turn that goodwill into enriching his pockets a bit and probably trying earnestly to make the country less shitty and corrupt, he's going to go soft on the East, to the breakaway regions benefit (and everyone involved) and Putin is going to take advantage because he's a chess player. He's actually a really good president for Ukraine rn, he's kind of ineffectual but it remains to be seen how badly he will be corrupted by Ukraines political and financial spheres
I don't know. I think you underestimate how important US support is for the Ukrainian 'government'... If you look at how he held himself in that meeting with Trump, it's obvious he's stuck in a place where he knows he's going to get it from both ends. He's forced to take a side in the war between the US establishment (ie. the Obama policy that created his kingdom) and Trump (who has the final say as to whether the Ukraine gets funded). It's a dramatic lose/lose/lose for him.
https://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2019/09/look-whos-not-laughing.html
I'm not a huge fan of this writer but he does have some good articles, this one included. -
2019-10-03 at 10:32 AM UTC
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2019-10-03 at 12:39 PM UTC
Originally posted by aldra I don't know. I think you underestimate how important US support is for the Ukrainian 'government'… If you look at how he held himself in that meeting with Trump, it's obvious he's stuck in a place where he knows he's going to get it from both ends. He's forced to take a side in the war between the US establishment (ie. the Obama policy that created his kingdom) and Trump (who has the final say as to whether the Ukraine gets funded). It's a dramatic lose/lose/lose for him.
https://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2019/09/look-whos-not-laughing.html
I'm not a huge fan of this writer but he does have some good articles, this one included.
I think hes got to pivot towards Russia and recognize Ukraine is a borderlands country that needs to have several dogs in its fight. Europe will have the west and Russia will have the east and the US will recognize it had no business there in the first place because look how it turns out. Porky made trip after trip to the US and made faces like zelensky made because he realized the US was very trepedacious about being involved in anything Ukrainian besides curbing Russian expansion. Trump doesn't even care about that, just what Ukraine can do for him (end his presidency) and doesn't care who gets the spoiled breadbasket. Europe doesn't need Ukraine like Russia does and Russia has much deeper ties. This is all going to work out well for Putin but popular support is going to wake due to zelenskys soft on Russia stance albeit for the betterment of Ukraine as a whole
At least that's what I think/hope will happen. Zelensky doesn't have the same aversion to all things Russian thst the previous administration and rada have. He just needs to frame things in a way that doesn't appear like he's bending over to the east when the country has been bending over to the west for the last 5 years -
2019-10-03 at 11:59 PM UTCOh yeah I meant to start a thread about that too.
Zelensky's signed the Steinmeir Formula which leads to recognising at least partial autonomy of the breakaway regions and the US 'establishment' and the local nationalist powers are going fucking mental.
On one hand it's inevitable because there's no way the Ukrainian state can win them back, militarily or otherwise, but on the other losing them means the literal death of the Ukraine as an independent entity. The best he can hope for is granting them some degree of autonomy but keeping their economic power, but that will require normalisation of relations with Russia.
Probably the only significant thing in the phonecall that was released was Turnip telling Zelensky that he should try to make peace with Putin. This flies directly in the face of the Obongo-era plan to foment an anti-Russian coup in order to 'contain Russian expansionism', and a lot of people in the US government will not be happy about it. I'm not sure whether Trump realises that there never was any 'Russian Expansionism' or if he's just realised that the current government in Kiev is a terrible investment. -
2019-10-04 at 12:51 AM UTCNo matter what Biden or his son did way back when, receiving help from a foreign government that could in any way affect the election is illegal. Although Joe Biden should be executed for his crimes against humanity. He is a despicable human being and one of the worst criminals of the 20th and 21st century.
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2019-10-04 at 12:52 AM UTCany interaction with a foreign government could feasibly affect a local election
that's not what this thread is about though -
2019-10-04 at 12:59 AM UTCThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2019-10-04 at 1:37 AM UTCIt's kind of funny because if Ukraine even recognizes the minsk 2 (or 1) agreement(s) and acts on them, that basically prevents the territory from ever being ceded back to Ukraine. Ukraine has to break an internationally recognized treaty (with monitors who've had to call ukraine out before for actually trying to respect it) in order to do anything about the East and Zelensky doesn't have the time or money to fight with 250mm cannons and mortars over what used to be a potato field against people he identifies with and speak his language over a stupid attempt at rewriting history. Russia will only be able to expand (maybe as far as slovayansk or however you spell the initial capital of the dpr) and bring more Cossacks into Luhansk and fight over some of the few areas that have trees that aren't burnt to a crisp.
Russia's economy is bouncing back a bit and Ukraine could definitely benefit from that goodwill. Also, have you heard about this?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-praise-trump-taunt-zelensky-as-ukraine-signs-on-to-steinmeier-formula-peace-plan-proposal
"Monica Zelensky" I can't believe I never saw that before. It really sounds like his popularity is taking a hit because of it but the minsk agreements do allow elections, it's just been so long ago it can't continue to be the status quo so they have to go back to the table but they're at a disadvantage again
And yes, Uncle Joe is a child molesting piece of shit -
2019-10-04 at 1:39 AM UTCLooks like Creepy Uncle Joe and his creepy son are going down big time.
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2019-10-04 at 1:41 AM UTC
Originally posted by -SpectraL Looks like Creepy Uncle Joe and his creepy son are going down big time.
They're not though and nobody is saying they are. They probably could have several years ago but it's far, FAR too late and it's ridiculous to wish that would happen because it's inconceivable. It could hurt his primary nomination thoThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-10-04 at 1:53 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sudo It's kind of funny because if Ukraine even recognizes the minsk 2 (or 1) agreement(s) and acts on them, that basically prevents the territory from ever being ceded back to Ukraine. Ukraine has to break an internationally recognized treaty (with monitors who've had to call ukraine out before for actually trying to respect it) in order to do anything about the East and Zelensky doesn't have the time or money to fight with 250mm cannons and mortars over what used to be a potato field against people he identifies with and speak his language over a stupid attempt at rewriting history. Russia will only be able to expand (maybe as far as slovayansk or however you spell the initial capital of the dpr) and bring more Cossacks into Luhansk and fight over some of the few areas that have trees that aren't burnt to a crisp.
So far the Kiev government hasn't actually ratified anything in the Minsk agreements; they just use it as a bludgeon to accuse the rebels of aggression. They've refused even the first steps; drawing heavy artillery back from the contact line and in terms of international enforcement they (the government) are demanding peacekeepers but not on the contact line - they want a wall of UN 'peacekeepers' on the border between the DPR and Russia. Russia absolutely won't allow this with Putin sating before the UN that such an arrangement would be the preparation for another Ssnerbernerger (you know what I'm referring to).
Originally posted by Sudo Russia's economy is bouncing back a bit and Ukraine could definitely benefit from that goodwill
Russia's economy failing has been a western meme; they're dominating the European agricultural sector, building up manufacturing and have no real competitors for the European gas market - the Polish government are the only retards buying up US gas for like twice the price. Add to that deep trade agreements with China and its foundational role in the growing BRI/Eurasian integration and it's fair to say they came out of the Yeltsin years better than anyone predicted.
Originally posted by Sudo https://www.thedailybeast.com/russians-praise-trump-taunt-zelensky-as-ukraine-signs-on-to-steinmeier-formula-peace-plan-proposal
the face of Ukraine’s most powerful ally in its struggle against Russian aggression
one sentence in and I don't think I can make it through this articleThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-10-04 at 1:56 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sudo They're not though and nobody is saying they are. They probably could have several years ago but it's far, FAR too late and it's ridiculous to wish that would happen because it's inconceivable. It could hurt his primary nomination tho
Yeah Trump's recent outbursts have turned the upcoming elections into a zero-sum 'us vs. them' thing - in that arrangement the people who are backing Trump will never have voted Biden anyway, and the people voting against him are unlikely to have their choice of candidate swayed by anything he says, regardless of whether it's truthful or not. -
2019-10-04 at 1:57 AM UTCHillary will be the 2020 Democrat contender. The "I'm With Her.... Again" campaign.
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2019-10-04 at 2:05 AM UTC
Originally posted by aldra the face of Ukraine’s most powerful ally in its struggle against Russian aggression
one sentence in and I don't think I can make it through this article
Yeah it's the dailybitch just basically saying monica zelensky is backed into a corner and can only really turn to Russia. The new things on the table are basically reprimands for how poorly Ukraine chose to follow the previous agreements and the ground is being set to integrate the DPR/LPR into more useful and viable things, it's another transnistria/south ossettia/abkhazia situation and it's going to be bigger and get more recognition, just you wait
Also, how fucking cool would a movie about the Donetsk airport battle be? Watching clips of it gives me the chillsThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2019-10-05 at 6:50 AM UTClol, Zelensky acquiesced. I hope Trump keeps pulling this string
