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Life is more interesting without scientific labelings
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2016-12-14 at 11:05 PM UTCLife is more interesting without obbe
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2016-12-14 at 11:07 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Do you believe people who have a genuine spiritual experience have a significantly different brain then you do, or is it something else?
Not a different brain, simply a different interpretation of the sense data. Whether this interpretation is wrong or right is beyond the scope of this post.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2016-12-14 at 11:14 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie Not a different brain, simply a different interpretation of the sense data. Whether this interpretation is wrong or right is beyond the scope of this post.
Can things that are entirely subjective ever be objectively right or wrong? Can claims like "Red is the best colour," be right or wrong, or is it always just a matter or perspective, a way of viewing something? If it's just a matter of perspective, isn't spirituality also? -
2016-12-14 at 11:27 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Can things that are entirely subjective ever be objectively right or wrong?
No. This is a self-defeating position.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Can claims like "Red is the best colour," be right or wrong,
Yes, take a camera for instance. You can say that a red enhancement is best to produce a warm looking image.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind or is it always just a matter or perspective, a way of viewing something?
Not always, it depends on what you are talking about.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind If it's just a matter of perspective, isn't spirituality also?
If i unbeknown to you rig your glasses(We'll pretend you wear glasses) to show every image upside down and i would show you an arrow that is pointing down, and you would say it is pointing up...
Does the real world get changed by your party spectacles or is your perception clouded by some other mechanism? -
2016-12-14 at 11:34 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind No, I don't agree a spirit is in and of itself supernatural. I don't believe that would discredit spirituality because as I see it spirituality is a deeply personal and subjective thing. As a metaphor, someone with an unusual fetish might find a regular everyday experience to be sexual. A person without that fetish would not agree that it is sexual. That does not mean that one of those people are wrong, or stupid, rather they just view that experience differently. Similarly people who view an experience as spiritual are not necessarily wrong or stupid, they just view it differently.
Mq, would you label the experiences you refer to as spiritual? Why or why not? Do you think people who have spiritual experiences have differences in their brain?
I would say that calling something spiritual is no different than calling something profound or awakening. Obviously the term spirituality has many different perspectives and is commonly used in a religious sense or with things like yoga and meditating and all that jazz. I wouldn't personally say that I've ever had a spiritual experience based on my aforementioned statement. I don't know what a spirit is or a soul is or if they exist, if you know what I mean.
I feel as though it's simply a label for an unordinary experience but doesn't by any means conclusively demonstrate that there in fact were 'spirits' involved. Growing up a Christian and well into my adult life I have certainly experienced moments with God that at the time I would've absolutely claimed them as spiritual under the preface of spirituality as it's associated with those religious beliefs. Looking back I can now see that I was creating the illusion of something that likely wasn't real. My experiences were real, of course, my feelings were real, but it was nothing more complex than experiencing those feelings and giving that experience a label.
Like I said, I don't think spirituality is well defined enough to where you could ever see someone else experiencing something and claim to know or point out that they are having a spiritual experience. You can only claim it for yourself and when you do so you are deciding that what you've gone through pertains to something unnatural. I can say that I'm having a spiritual experience right now while I type this but it doesn't mean anything and it doesn't make it true.
I don't know if that makes any sense. In short, spirituality is ill-defined and can't be conclusively demonstrated as an actual supernatural experience. If you want to call a moment of enlightenment a spiritual experience that makes sense but doesn't mean there is truly any spirituality going on even if you feel as though there is.
Turtles?The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2016-12-15 at 12:56 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie If i unbeknown to you rig your glasses(We'll pretend you wear glasses) to show every image upside down and i would show you an arrow that is pointing down, and you would say it is pointing up…
Does the real world get changed by your party spectacles or is your perception clouded by some other mechanism?
If you consider your thought processes and your perspective on life to be a part of the real world, then yeah, sure. I mean, viewing the world from a different perspective can be the difference between being depressed and being happy and content. It can alter a persons disposition, their choices and behavior and ultimately affect their entire life.
How is mistakenly viewing down as up a metaphor for viewing an experience as a spiritual experience? That implies a spiritual perspective is a mistake, do you believe that a spiritual perspective is a mistake? Why?
Originally posted by mmQ I would say that calling something spiritual is no different than calling something profound or awakening. Obviously the term spirituality has many different perspectives and is commonly used in a religious sense or with things like yoga and meditating and all that jazz. I wouldn't personally say that I've ever had a spiritual experience based on my aforementioned statement. I don't know what a spirit is or a soul is or if they exist, if you know what I mean.
I feel as though it's simply a label for an unordinary experience but doesn't by any means conclusively demonstrate that there in fact were 'spirits' involved. Growing up a Christian and well into my adult life I have certainly experienced moments with God that at the time I would've absolutely claimed them as spiritual under the preface of spirituality as it's associated with those religious beliefs. Looking back I can now see that I was creating the illusion of something that likely wasn't real. My experiences were real, of course, my feelings were real, but it was nothing more complex than experiencing those feelings and giving that experience a label.
Like I said, I don't think spirituality is well defined enough to where you could ever see someone else experiencing something and claim to know or point out that they are having a spiritual experience. You can only claim it for yourself and when you do so you are deciding that what you've gone through pertains to something unnatural. I can say that I'm having a spiritual experience right now while I type this but it doesn't mean anything and it doesn't make it true.
I don't know if that makes any sense. In short, spirituality is ill-defined and can't be conclusively demonstrated as an actual supernatural experience. If you want to call a moment of enlightenment a spiritual experience that makes sense but doesn't mean there is truly any spirituality going on even if you feel as though there is.
Turtles?
I'm pretty sure I agree with you on a lot of that, and I think that if spirituality doesn't mean anything to you there's no point in describing anything as spiritual. As I see it spirituality is personal and subjective, it's a matter of perspective and not everyone has to have a similar perspective on the world. That said, I do believe that whatever perspective you do have, can have a tremendous impact on your life. -
2016-12-15 at 1:08 AM UTCYes, a matter of perspective, and although spirituality can only be personally defined, I still beg the question what separates a personal experience from being spiritual or being, say, powerful. At what point does the effect of something decide you to declare that it has now crossed the threshold into a spiritual experience, and what makes that so?The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2016-12-15 at 1:12 AM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind If you consider your thought processes and your perspective on life to be a part of the real world, then yeah, sure. I mean, viewing the world from a different perspective can be the difference between being depressed and being happy and content. It can alter a persons disposition, their choices and behavior and ultimately affect their entire life.
How is mistakenly viewing down as up a metaphor for viewing an experience as a spiritual experience? That implies a spiritual perspective is a mistake, do you believe that a spiritual perspective is a mistake? Why?
I am illustrating how viewing something from a different perspective can seem real but isn't an accurate description of reality. I think people believing in God are mistaken. They interpret the data that is available in a wrong way with their 'perspective'. -
2016-12-15 at 1:28 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am illustrating how viewing something from a different perspective can seem real but isn't an accurate description of reality. I think people believing in God are mistaken. They interpret the data that is available in a wrong way with their 'perspective'.
You said you have felt at one with the universe before, that not only are you a part of the universe but the universe is a part of you. When I experience that it feels deeply spiritual to me. Is it a mistake for me to feel that way? Is my perspective/interpretation wrong? How is it wrong? If I were to say that connection, that union with everything else is God in my eyes, is that a mistake? How is it a mistake? How can you say your perspective is the right or true perspective, and not merely a different perspective?
What is it like to be a bat? We can examine bats, dissect bats, figure out how they work, why they behave the way they do, but you will never know what it is like to be a bat unless you are a bat. We can try to scientifically describe what a bat is as objectively an accurately as possible, but that will never be the same as the "bat experience". When I feel like I am 'one with the universe' I could leave subjectivity at the door and try to describe this experience as objectively as possible, but that will never be the same as my deeply spiritual experience. When I say "the experience was spiritual" there is a subjective quality which I am trying to convey. Is it wrong to do that? How? Why?
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2016-12-15 at 1:44 AM UTCI know these were addressed toward Soph but I'll add my take anyway because FUCK YOU.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind You said you have felt at one with the universe before, that not only are you a part of the universe but the universe is a part of you. When I experience that it feels deeply spiritual to me. Is it a mistake for me to feel that way?
No.Is my perspective/interpretation wrong? How is it wrong?
Neither. You personally find your experience can be defined as spiritual where someone else could have the identical experience and call it something else.If I were to say that connection, that union with everything else is God in my eyes, is that a mistake? How is it a mistake?
What does this mean? You become God? What does it to mean that connection you feel is God?
How can you say your perspective is the right or true perspective, and not merely a different perspective?
I think perspective literally means that it's one of what has to be more than one take. A perspective can't be right or wrong. Perspective is synonymous with an opinion.What is it like to be a bat? We can examine bats, dissect bats, figure out how they work, why they behave the way they do, but you will never know what it is like to be a bat unless you are a bat. We can try to scientifically describe what a bat is as objectively an accurately as possible, but that will never be the same as the "bat experience". When I feel like I am 'one with the universe' I could leave subjectivity at the door and try to describe this experience as objectively as possible, but that will never be the same as my deeply spiritual experience. When I say "the experience was spiritual" there is a subjective quality which I am trying to convey. Is it wrong to do that? How? Why?
Dude you've never been a bat? For shame. It's fun fun fun.
The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2016-12-15 at 2:03 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ What does this mean? You become God? What does it to mean that connection you feel is God?
You don't become something you already are. We are all connected, we are all one being, in my eyes that is what God is, the beta and the Omega. -
2016-12-15 at 2:26 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Yes, a matter of perspective, and although spirituality can only be personally defined, I still beg the question what separates a personal experience from being spiritual or being, say, powerful. At what point does the effect of something decide you to declare that it has now crossed the threshold into a spiritual experience, and what makes that so?
I missed this post. I suppose that's the sort of question a person has to answer for themselves. -
2016-12-15 at 3:18 AM UTClife is more interesting in ... the biglys
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2016-12-15 at 3:03 PM UTCI love it when Obbe gets defensive over spirituality and then loses every point.. He's so open minded.
Nobody attacked you, faggot. No reason to go in defense mode over your hippy bullshit.
- RisiR, lifelong Psychonaut and author of the book "Go fuck yourself, Hippy" -
2016-12-15 at 3:10 PM UTC
Originally posted by RisiR Waaaaiiit a second, is "science" trying to claim with its fancy "brain scans" and "tests" that the human brain actually needs communication, grammar and labeling to properly form?!
Hahaha… what a bunch of idiots.
I love how this was completely ignored. -
2016-12-15 at 3:11 PM UTCI also love my mom. God bless.
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2016-12-15 at 7:17 PM UTC
Originally posted by RisiR I love it when Obbe gets defensive over spirituality and then loses every point.. He's so open minded.
Nobody attacked you, faggot. No reason to go in defense mode over your hippy bullshit.
- RisiR, lifelong Psychonaut and author of the book "Go fuck yourself, Hippy"
Show me where I "lost every point". -
2016-12-15 at 10:43 PM UTCI guess that's a no.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2016-12-15 at 10:50 PM UTCnoob
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2016-12-15 at 10:50 PM UTCboob
