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In general, drugs that cause you to eat and sleep less than normal...
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2019-01-08 at 6:07 AM UTCAre more dangerous than drugs that do not...
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2019-01-08 at 6:09 AM UTCI tend to agree.
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2019-01-08 at 6:28 AM UTCi think we can all agree sleeping and eating is healthy
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2019-01-08 at 6:37 AM UTCIntuitively, it feels that way, but it's important to realize that certain biases might be at play.
I have a tendency to prefer CNS depressants (opiates, relaxants, GABAergics, etc) over stimulants.
Might it not be coincidence that I feel healthier when I take the drugs I prefer?
These "drug X is better than drug Y for Z reason" arguments are never really all that productive, and just result in people justifying (rationalizing?) their own particular drug of choice.
And then it gets even thornier when we start citing empirical research (that is, if it even gets that far...), because the definition of "dangerous" is incredibly vague; and the same things goes with "unhealthy"/"bad-for-you", etc.
Although, the worst comparative drug quality metric is "better/worse." Holy fuck, I can't stand those arguments. Debate 101, people: define your terms. -
2019-01-08 at 6:39 AM UTCyea but you can't rationalize the guilt in the smell of that first piss in 28 hours mid meth binge
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2019-01-08 at 6:48 AM UTCEXPLAIN THAT HIST
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2019-01-08 at 7:11 AM UTCLike I said, my inclination is definitely towards stimulants being worse for you than CNS depressants.
I'm just trying to point out that certain biases can cause blind spots. -
2019-01-08 at 7:12 AM UTCOne thing that always comes to mind, though, with this particular debate is a machinery metaphor...
When you try to make something run unnaturally faster than it's supposed, it just seems like you're going to cause more "wear and tear" on the parts, and that doesn't seem exclusive to things like factory equipment and automobiles.
Cellular activity isn't free, after all. It requires energy to operate. -
2019-01-08 at 7:13 AM UTCoh, i'm just talking shit because i'm fucked up
when i did meth though sometimes i didn't drink water or eat for like a day or two and my body would feel wrecked and i would look like total shit, so after a while i would make it a habit to force myself to drink a lot of water and i could stay up for like 3 days and not even look bad sometimes. -
2019-01-08 at 7:16 AM UTCRe-uptake inhibitors burn your receptors out through excitotoxicity. Stims are mostly re-uptake inhibitors or releasers of neurotransmitters. Opiates in example mimic your natural neurotransmitters. Benzos are allosteric modulators, this means they make your endogenous GABA work better in a certain way, depending on how and where the benzo binds.
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2019-01-08 at 7:46 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie Re-uptake inhibitors burn your receptors out through excitotoxicity. Stims are mostly re-uptake inhibitors or releasers of neurotransmitters.
Ok, but wouldn't that mean that SSRI's, one of the most commonly prescribed medications, should be just as "harmful" as stimulants then?
Originally posted by Sophie Opiates in example mimic your natural neurotransmitters. Benzos are allosteric modulators, this means they make your endogenous GABA work better in a certain way, depending on how and where the benzo binds.
No argument from me here for the most part.
However, what about GABAergic drug withdrawals?
I have been through both opiate and GABAergic withdrawals, and I would characterize them very differently:
-- Opiate withdrawals are absolutely horrible, but you know it's not going to kill you.
-- Benzodiazepine withdrawals seem to be less horrible, but potentially more dangerous. I started having muscle spasms and/or seizures that were, while intermittent (allowing me to function properly without running to dose myself like opiate withdrawals would do), they were kinda frightening. -
2019-01-08 at 7:53 AM UTC
Originally posted by OG_GREENPLASTIC_JOHNSON_III when i did meth though sometimes i didn't drink water or eat for like a day or two and my body would feel wrecked and i would look like total shit, so after a while i would make it a habit to force myself to drink a lot of water and i could stay up for like 3 days and not even look bad sometimes.
Hey, man, you're preaching to the choir here.
I feel absolutely gross after even just one full day of meth use.
When it leads to all-nighters and all that, it just gets exponentially worse.
But what if, hypothetically speaking at least, you were able to stay well hydrated, nutritionally satiated, and even maintain a steady sleep schedule, all combined with daily meth use?
It's incredibly difficult, but not impossible. There are very potent/effective sleep aids out there.
You just have to be resourceful, and maybe even a bit creative/strategic.
And nutrition can be just as feasible - there are meal replacement beverages that have all the nutrients you need (carbs, proteins, vitamins, minerals, etc). And drinking water isn't exactly a serious challenge, no matter how twacked you are. -
2019-01-08 at 12:27 PM UTC
Originally posted by gadzooks Ok, but wouldn't that mean that SSRI's, one of the most commonly prescribed medications, should be just as "harmful" as stimulants then?
Yeah, they fuck you up. But there's degrees to everything. Actually i would say SSRI's are a great example because the fucking things have 24 hour+ half lives.
Originally posted by gadzooks No argument from me here for the most part.
However, what about GABAergic drug withdrawals?
I have been through both opiate and GABAergic withdrawals, and I would characterize them very differently:
– Opiate withdrawals are absolutely horrible, but you know it's not going to kill you.
– Benzodiazepine withdrawals seem to be less horrible, but potentially more dangerous. I started having muscle spasms and/or seizures that were, while intermittent (allowing me to function properly without running to dose myself like opiate withdrawals would do), they were kinda frightening.
It's because GABA is involved in a lot more than just how chill you feel. It literally regulates how excited or inhibited some parts of your brain are. It also helps with muscle tension. The brain is always trying to get to a point of homeostasis. If you take excessive benzos your brain will be inhibited up to the point tolerance through various mechanisms that not only lay with GABAergic neurons start of processes to get back to homeostasis. If you then suddenly stop taking the benzos, it's not like your brain can turn these countermeasures off on command.
The difference in withdrawel is due to the nature of the role that the endogenous equivalent fulfills. -
2019-01-08 at 12:56 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie It's because GABA is involved in a lot more than just how chill you feel. It literally regulates how excited or inhibited some parts of your brain are. It also helps with muscle tension. The brain is always trying to get to a point of homeostasis. If you take excessive benzos your brain will be inhibited up to the point tolerance through various mechanisms that not only lay with GABAergic neurons start of processes to get back to homeostasis. If you then suddenly stop taking the benzos, it's not like your brain can turn these countermeasures off on command.
The difference in withdrawel is due to the nature of the role that the endogenous equivalent fulfills.
So then it seems that GABAerigcs are actually just as harmful as stimulants. They clearly cause literal brain damage (although obviously reversible by simply tapering off and resuming a non-intoxicated state).
Or is the general argument here that stimulants actually do permanent / irreversible damage (while GABAergics, and opiates for that matter, do not)? -
2019-01-08 at 1:12 PM UTCUnless one is on the heavier side than it should help.
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2019-01-08 at 1:55 PM UTCNEW DRIP
NEW BITCH,
WHOLE LOTTA NEW SHIT FLEXIN
SHE KEEP ON CALLIN AND TEXTIN
OOH, I HAD TO LEARN MY LESSON
OOH, CAN'T BE BROKE AND STRESSIN -
2019-01-08 at 3:20 PM UTCSoyboy IV: The Flower of Death and The Crystal of Life African Astronaut [the oppositely able-bodied hop-step-and-jump]
Let's compare sedatives like booze and opiates and stimulants like caffeine and speed by deaths, injuries and long term damage. -
2019-01-08 at 3:34 PM UTCIn general, drugs that cause you to eat and sleep less than normal…
2019-01-08 at 12:07 AM CST
Report #1
WellHung
African Astronaut
Are more dangerous than drugs that do not…
Double speak.
Has no basis in fact. -
2019-01-08 at 4:03 PM UTC
Originally posted by MORALLY SUPERIOR BEING IV: The Flower of Death and The Crystal of Life Let's compare sedatives like booze and opiates and stimulants like caffeine and speed by deaths, injuries and long term damage.
Are you sure?
Because I'm pretty sure if we do that, opiates and alcohol become like a holocaust compared to stimulants.
Like I mentioned above, these debates get tricky because different studies, and even different definitions of causality, and so on, can result in all kinds of different interpretations of the data.
I mean, are we including, say, bodily damage and deaths caused by lowered inhibitions from alcohol ==> bar fights and domestic violence?
What about motor vehicle accidents?According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 37,133 people died in traffic crashes in 2017 in the United States (latest figures available), including an estimated 10,874 people who were killed in drunk driving crashes involving a driver with an illegal BAC (.08 or greater).
Then there is the long-term damage (from alcohol) seen in cirrhosis of the liver, Korsakoff's syndrome, etc, etc.
And what about needle sharing ==> hepatitis C and HIV?
Of course, stimulants can be administered intravenously, but I'm pretty sure most IV drug users are opiate using them for opiates primarily (admittedly, I could be wrong on that - it's just intuition and personal experience that I'm basic that on).
And finally, do we count deaths caused by contaminants in the drugs?
Even though there have been cases of fentanyl being used as a cutting agent in stimulants and other non-opiate drugs, it's primarily used to cut heroin, and thus leads to more opiate-based deaths. There are also a lot of addicts actively seeking fentanyl because of how strong it is compared to the straight heroin that dealers are selling that is cut to absolute shit (and this is from direct observation - a close friend of mine keeps asking me if I know how to synthesize fentanyl yet). -
2019-01-08 at 4:08 PM UTC
Originally posted by cupocheer In general, drugs that cause you to eat and sleep less than normal…
2019-01-08 at 12:07 AM CST
Report #1
WellHung
African Astronaut
Are more dangerous than drugs that do not…
Double speak.
Has no basis in fact.
Wut? How exactly is that double speak? It exactly seems to be drawing a pretty clear connection/correlation between two observable phenomena:
A) Taking drugs that tend to adversely affect sleep and nutrition.
B) Long-term damage.
The problem, however, is that this observation is only really correlational, and does not establish causality.
I don't think I'd call that "doublespeak".
