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Dear America
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2015-10-08 at 5:43 AM UTC
Lolwut.
Lan:"My argument is based on assumption X"
Sophie:"Assumption X is wrong."
Lan:"that's still the point you need to attack if you want to knock down the liberal argument!!!"
Does not compute.
Where has OP challenged the idea that stricter gun control would lead to lower rates of gun violence? -
2015-10-08 at 6:06 AM UTC
Where has OP challenged the idea that stricter gun control would lead to lower rates of gun violence?
He hasn't but you're saying that to argue stricter gun control you must accept the assumption that it actually does what you say and decreases gun violence. Or did i misunderstand it when you said:
you don't accept that premise
BUT that's still the point you need to attack -
2015-10-08 at 6:12 AM UTCI used to have a liberal stance on gun control and ownership and just the mere presence of guns in general but I've digressed. I just don't care anymore. I do think that we as a citizen-whole do need them/should have them for any type of revolution that might take place (which I strongly hope happens, not that it will because we're fucking pussies and enjoy comfort over discomfort) but I don't understand the whole 'come on my property I'll shoot you dead' ideology that some many right-wing nuts seem to have. It's like there's no gray area with them; if you come around and do something bad you should be shot and you should be shot dead. It doesn't matter if you were stealing change from a car, you should DIE and if you try to steal change from my car you wILL DIE BECAUSE I WILL PROTECT MY FAMILY blah blah. Then there's the whole thing about justifying cops shooting people who draw a gun on them (which is fine, and makes sense), then the same people say they will use their guns to protect themselves from someone else with a gun pointed at them when in reality if the logic holds true, the bad guy with the gun is going to shoot the good guy with the gun the instant the good guy with the gun attempts to draw his weapon in an attempt to defend himself against the bad guy who already has his gun pointed at him/her, therefore rendering the whole idea behind it worthless. Wouldn't it make more sense to lose some monetary value rather than potentially lose your life? But again, I digress. Have your guns, brehs, I personally have never needed one and can't imagine a scenario where I would NEED A GUN. I don't need to be a hero and I'd rather lose physical possessions than potentially my life.
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2015-10-08 at 12:20 PM UTC
I used to have a liberal stance on gun control and ownership and just the mere presence of guns in general but I've digressed. I just don't care anymore. I do think that we as a citizen-whole do need them/should have them for any type of revolution that might take place (which I strongly hope happens, not that it will because we're fucking pussies and enjoy comfort over discomfort) but I don't understand the whole 'come on my property I'll shoot you dead' ideology that some many right-wing nuts seem to have. It's like there's no gray area with them; if you come around and do something bad you should be shot and you should be shot dead. It doesn't matter if you were stealing change from a car, you should DIE and if you try to steal change from my car you wILL DIE BECAUSE I WILL PROTECT MY FAMILY blah blah. Then there's the whole thing about justifying cops shooting people who draw a gun on them (which is fine, and makes sense), then the same people say they will use their guns to protect themselves from someone else with a gun pointed at them when in reality if the logic holds true, the bad guy with the gun is going to shoot the good guy with the gun the instant the good guy with the gun attempts to draw his weapon in an attempt to defend himself against the bad guy who already has his gun pointed at him/her, therefore rendering the whole idea behind it worthless. Wouldn't it make more sense to lose some monetary value rather than potentially lose your life? But again, I digress. Have your guns, brehs, I personally have never needed one and can't imagine a scenario where I would NEED A GUN. I don't need to be a hero and I'd rather lose physical possessions than potentially my life.
You never been in the situation, a fire fight I mean. Your post makes that obvious. Not to sound like Spectard here, but being unarmed I have saved my own life by disarming an opponent with a handgun. It was touch and go and I got lucky that time. Had I been armed at the time he would be dead rather than just missing his index and middle finger on his left hand.
The point is only the person in a given situation has the information needed to decide if lethal force is warranted. -
2015-10-08 at 5 PM UTC
He hasn't but you're saying that to argue stricter gun control you must accept the assumption that it actually does what you say and decreases gun violence. Or did i misunderstand it when you said:
you don't accept that premise
BUT that's still the point you need to attack
Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying you have to accept the notion that gun control reduces gun violence, I'm saying that if you want to write these shootings off as simply isolated, inevitable, incidents then rejecting that assumption is exactly what you have to do. In other words, there's an intermediary step. One can not simply say "there is no organized league of school shooters, ergo these crimes have nothing to do with each other" since that's not the position anyone arguing for gun control holds, it's that high gun availability and low mental healthcare availability are common causal influences in all these shootings, thus they are no mere statistical noise but an indication of a common phenomenon. If OP wants to wade into the issue of whether or not it's true that high gun/low mental healthcare availability are factors then fine but he seems to be trying to avoid this avenue in preference of shaming the media or something. -
2015-10-08 at 5:48 PM UTC
Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying you have to accept the notion that gun control reduces gun violence, I'm saying that if you want to write these shootings off as simply isolated, inevitable, incidents then rejecting that assumption is exactly what you have to do. In other words, there's an intermediary step. One can not simply say "there is no organized league of school shooters, ergo these crimes have nothing to do with each other" since that's not the position anyone arguing for gun control holds, it's that high gun availability and low mental healthcare availability are common causal influences in all these shootings, thus they are no mere statistical noise but an indication of a common phenomenon. If OP wants to wade into the issue of whether or not it's true that high gun/low mental healthcare availability are factors then fine but he seems to be trying to avoid this avenue in preference of shaming the media or something.
Let's look at gun availability. In this incident the vast majority of those present were unarmed dye to gun control (gun free zone) laws. However the criminal, not a ring about the law shot 11 or 13 or whatever the number dead.
That is one story sensationalized by the media which every is being manipulated by. Here are ten stories where a single person who was legally carrying prevented a similar tragedy.[h=1]Save Lives[/h] [FONT=BentonSans][SIZE=12px]Feb. 02, 2013[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/02/02/10-stories-that-prove-guns-save-lives-n1503549/page/full
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=16px] [FONT=inherit]In a nation that already has more than 200 million guns, gun control does little other than make the work of rapists, robbers, murderers and nuts like Adam Lanzaeasier. When faced with gun control laws, the law abiding citizen has no choice other than to disarm or become an outlaw, but people with bad intentions are faced with no such moral dilemma. That's why the best friend of a rapist or a potential Adam Lanza is the gun control advocate who's working tirelessly to insure that his targets can't adequately defend themselves.
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[FONT=inherit]On some level, even diehard advocates of gun control know this, which is why they want people with guns defending them. Our police aren't going to disarm, the military isn't going to try to fight our enemies with non-violent protests and the White House will never become a "gun free zone." But, what happens when the bad man with the gun is right there and the military, the police, and the President's Secret Service aren't on the scene? Then having a gun may be the difference between living or dying, between being raped or being okay, between saving your children or watching them die.
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[FONT=inherit]The hypocrites who want men with guns to protect them when they're in trouble, but want to prevent other law abiding citizens from defending themselves love to use anecdotal evidence to make their case. Those of us who are pro-Second Amendment then usually talk about our Constitutional rights or reel off statistics to counter them, but we have our own stories. There are thousands of good and decent Americans who are alive today precisely because they had guns. Gun control advocates might think the world would be a better place if those people and the ones you're about to read about were dead and the people menacing them had gotten away with their crimes, but those of us who are serious about our Second Amendment rights disagree.
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[INDENT]1) On February 12, 2007, a lone gunman, Sulejman Talovic, opened fire at the crowded Trolley Square shopping mall, killing five bystanders. Armed with a shotgun with a pistol grip, a 38-caliber handgun with rubber grips, and a backpack full of ammunition, he set forth on his rampage through the mall. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]But he did not get as far as he had hoped. He was stopped by off-duty police officer Kenneth Hammond of the Ogden City Police Department, who was at Trolley Square having an early Valentine’s Day dinner with his pregnant wife. When they heard shots, she called 911 and he drew his weapon and confronted Talovic. He was joined by Sgt. Andrew Oblad of the Salt Lake City Police Department. They pinned down Talovic, stopping further deaths, until a SWAT team from the Salt Lake City Police Department killed him.
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[FONT=inherit]Hammond, a man with a weapon, was credited with saving “countless lives.â€
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[INDENT]2) That's right. There was not a mass killing spree in Atlanta on Thursday, but there could have been. We'll never know – and thankfully so, because an armed guard stepped in. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]As reported by USA Today, "A 14-year-old student was shot at an Atlanta middle school Thursday afternoon, and another student was taken into custody, police said."
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[FONT=inherit]An armed guard disarmed the shooter moments after the 1:50 p.m. shooting in a courtyard at the Price Middle School in southeast Atlanta.
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[FONT=inherit]Atlanta Public Schools public information officer Steve Alford said the teen's wound was more toward the back of the neck, WXIA-TV reported.
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[FONT=inherit]An armed off-duty Atlanta police officer who works at the school subdued the shooter and had him drop his weapon, Police Chief George Turner said.
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[INDENT]3) Over the past couple days we've been hearing a whole lot about deadly rampages that have occurred throughout America, but what we haven't heard much about are the deadly rampages that have been prevented thanks to armed, trained, responsible security and citizens. Yesterday in San Antonio, an off-duty police officer prevented mass murder after taking out a gunman before he could kill anyone. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]Gunfire erupted at the Mayan Palace Theatre on Southwest Military Sunday night just before 9:30 pm. This shooting comes just days after a deadly rampage at a school in Connecticut and sparks memories of the mass slaying at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.
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[FONT=inherit]Investigators tell News 4 WOAI the gunman is 19-year-old Jesus Manuel Garcia. They say he worked at the China Garden restaurant right next to the Mayan Palace Theater. Police say Garcia opened fire at China Garden because of relationship problems with his girlfriend who also worked at the restaurant, although she was not present at the time. Officers explain that Garcia then continued to fire his weapon across the parking lot and into the theater. Garcia even opened fire on a San Antonio Police Department patrol car explained Detective Lou Antu, spokesman for the Bexar County Sherriff's Office.
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[FONT=inherit]“Everybody was just coming out of the side of the theater, running out the emergency exits. And everyone was screaming and running,†explained a moviegoer named Megan.
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[FONT=inherit]Garcia was finally stopped by a deputy who was working an off-duty job at the theater. The deputy shot Garcia four times.[/FONT]
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[INDENT]4) Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said.
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[FONT=inherit]The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.
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[FONT=inherit]"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."
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[FONT=inherit]The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.
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[FONT=inherit]….[/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.
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[FONT=inherit]"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."
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[INDENT]5) A Texas burglary suspect dialed 911 early Tuesday morning to report that an armed homeowner was threatening to shoot him, MyFoxDFW.com reported. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]James Gerow, the homeowner, told the station that he awoke and discovered a man wearing a dark hoodie inside his Springtown, Texas home. Springtown is a small city Northwest of Fort Worth.
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[FONT=inherit]Gerow grabbed his gun and followed the man out to a truck in his driveway.
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[FONT=inherit]With gun in hand, Gerow convinced the man to drop his keys. He told his wife to call 911 and waited for deputies to arrive.
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[INDENT]6) On January 19th, an elderly homeowner in MO was forced to defend himself when a 30 year old suspect broke into his home and assaulted him. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]The homeowner fired a shot at the intruder, striking him in the arm.[/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]The suspect then fled the scene, but was captured by police after a brief manhunt.
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[FONT=inherit]The homeowner was taken to the hospital for treatment of the injuries he sustained in the assault. The homeowner had to be airlifted to a second hospital for head injuries.
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[FONT=inherit]The suspect is charged with 1st degree assault and 1st degree burglary.
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[INDENT]7) There were frightening moments for a Loganville family forced to fight back against a robber chasing them in their own home Friday afternoon. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]CBS Atlanta News has uncovered new details regarding a home invasion in Loganville on Friday.
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[FONT=inherit]Walton County investigators said the homeowner involved wasn't the only target and released the chilling 911 call from the incident.
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[FONT=inherit]A mom and her twin 9-year-old children tried hiding near the attic - but the crook wouldn't back down.
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[FONT=inherit]Police say the crook was armed with a crow bar and the terrified woman inside the home opened fire on the crook, striking him five times.
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[INDENT]8) According to The Associated Press, a 14-year-old Phoenix boy shot an armed intruder who broke into his home at approximately 4:30 p.m. Saturday, June 23. At that time, the boy was babysitting his younger siblings, ages eight, 12 and 12. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]The incident started with a woman ringing the doorbell to the residence. Since the boy didn’t recognize the woman, he refused to open the door.
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[FONT=inherit]A short time later, the boy heard a loud bang, which he correctly assumed was someone attempting to force entry through the door. The boy gathered his siblings and hurried them upstairs as he armed himself with a handgun from his parent’s bedroom.
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[FONT=inherit]From the top of the stairs, the boy saw a man break open the front door. When the man pointed a gun at the boy, the boy shot the man. The man did not fire his weapon.
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[INDENT]9) The 53-year-old woman, who is also a veteran private school counselor, was alone at the time of the Wednesday morning attack. She lives on East Mount Tabor Circle in Duluth. [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]The woman was getting out of the shower when she was met by a strange man with a kitchen knife, police said. They said there was a struggle in the bathroom, and she fell in the tub. Police later identified the man as Israel Perez Puentes, a Cuban national who lived in betaretta.
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[FONT=inherit]"The male was armed with a kitchen knife, a struggle ensued between the two of them. She fell in the bathtub injuring herself," Gwinnett police spokesman Edwin Ritter said.
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[FONT=inherit]The woman tried to fight the man off with a shower rod, and he forced her into her bedroom, police said. They said she told her attacker she had money in the room. But she grabbed a .22-caliber handgun and shot the man nine times, police said.
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[FONT=inherit]Police said the man ran out of a back door and collapsed in the yard. He later died at the Gwinnett Medical Center. The victim, who was injured in the scuffle, was also taken to the hospital for treatment of non-life-threatening injuries. Police have not released her name.
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[INDENT]10) Monica Jones said Thursday she was more angry than afraid when she rushed to the aid of a screaming neighbor girl,pointed a shotgun at a man who had allegedly ripped off the youngster's clothes, and warned: ''Stay put or I'll shoot.'' [FONT=inherit] [/FONT]
[FONT=inherit]''You don't think about getting hurt,'' Ms. Jones, a mother of three, said in an interview. ''If someone is getting hurt, I can't close my door.''
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[FONT=inherit]Police credit Ms. Jones' quick action with preventing the 12-year-old girl from being raped.
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[FONT=inherit]''She's a heroine,'' said police Capt. Robert Richters. ''She did an outstanding job - simply outstanding.''
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[FONT=inherit]But Ms. Jones, 28, said her actions under the circumstances were only normal.
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[FONT=inherit]''I wasn't going to stand back and let this man take this child and do awful things to her,'' she said. ''She wasn't nothing but a baby. If she were my child, I would hope somebody would be there to save her.''
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2015-10-08 at 7:34 PM UTC
Yeah, I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying you have to accept the notion that gun control reduces gun violence, I'm saying that if you want to write these shootings off as simply isolated, inevitable, incidents then rejecting that assumption is exactly what you have to do. In other words, there's an intermediary step. One can not simply say "there is no organized league of school shooters, ergo these crimes have nothing to do with each other" since that's not the position anyone arguing for gun control holds, it's that high gun availability and low mental healthcare availability are common causal influences in all these shootings, thus they are no mere statistical noise but an indication of a common phenomenon. If OP wants to wade into the issue of whether or not it's true that high gun/low mental healthcare availability are factors then fine but he seems to be trying to avoid this avenue in preference of shaming the media or something.
Yeah i misunderstood. But i still don't agree with gun control. -
2015-10-08 at 7:38 PM UTC
I used to have a liberal stance on gun control and ownership and just the mere presence of guns in general but I've digressed. I just don't care anymore. I do think that we as a citizen-whole do need them/should have them for any type of revolution that might take place (which I strongly hope happens, not that it will because we're fucking pussies and enjoy comfort over discomfort) but I don't understand the whole 'come on my property I'll shoot you dead' ideology that some many right-wing nuts seem to have. It's like there's no gray area with them; if you come around and do something bad you should be shot and you should be shot dead. It doesn't matter if you were stealing change from a car, you should DIE and if you try to steal change from my car you wILL DIE BECAUSE I WILL PROTECT MY FAMILY blah blah. Then there's the whole thing about justifying cops shooting people who draw a gun on them (which is fine, and makes sense), then the same people say they will use their guns to protect themselves from someone else with a gun pointed at them when in reality if the logic holds true, the bad guy with the gun is going to shoot the good guy with the gun the instant the good guy with the gun attempts to draw his weapon in an attempt to defend himself against the bad guy who already has his gun pointed at him/her, therefore rendering the whole idea behind it worthless. Wouldn't it make more sense to lose some monetary value rather than potentially lose your life? But again, I digress. Have your guns, brehs, I personally have never needed one and can't imagine a scenario where I would NEED A GUN. I don't need to be a hero and I'd rather lose physical possessions than potentially my life.
The effect is preventative mQ. It is reasonable to assume a criminal does not want to die, so if private gun ownership is widespread the risk of the criminal ending up dead when trying to rob or rape or murder someone would be increased exponentially. Therefore the potential cost of engaging in criminal activity would likely outweigh the benefit for your run of the mill bad guy. -
2015-10-09 at 5:27 AM UTC
Let's look at gun availability. In this incident the vast majority of those present were unarmed dye to gun control (gun free zone) laws. However the criminal, not a ring about the law shot 11 or 13 or whatever the number dead.
That is one story sensationalized by the media which every is being manipulated by. Here are ten stories where a single person who was legally carrying prevented a similar tragedy.
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/02/02/10-stories-that-prove-guns-save-lives-n1503549/page/full
Congratulations on copy pasting 10 anecdotes. Hey, if I post 11 stories about crimes enabled by gun ownership would you admit to being wrong? -
2015-10-09 at 5:33 AM UTCamusing how little coverage is being given to the fact that it was most likely religiously motivated
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2015-10-09 at 8:43 AM UTC
Guns don't cause crime, brown people do. -
2015-10-09 at 4:22 PM UTC
Congratulations on copy pasting 10 anecdotes. Hey, if I post 11 stories about crimes enabled by gun ownership would you admit to being wrong?
They are not anecdotes, every one has a link to the news source when it was reported. Dismissing actual events as anecdotes is a sure sign that you have no substantial counter point. The facts and statistics show the more armed the populace is the lower the rate violence. But gun control wingnuts ignore the facts and attack the person reporting them. Nice strawman Lan Lan. -
2015-10-09 at 4:37 PM UTC
Guns don't cause crime, brown people do.
Hah, says the guy who can't hear mention of a nordic country without rushing in with "BUT THE CONFOUNDING VARIABLES YOU FOOL!". The one sourced/readable chart you posted mixes developed and undeveloped countries as well as giving exactly zero consideration to availability of mental healthcare which is also a critical point here.They are not anecdotes, every one has a link to the news source when it was reported.
Lol, just because it's in the news somewhere doesn't make it any less of an anecdote.Dismissing actual events as anecdotes is a sure sign that you have no substantial counter point. The facts and statistics show the more armed the populace is the lower the rate violence.
No, actually, the graph posted from a clearly biased pro-gun website in this very thread demonstrates that's simply not true.But gun control wingnuts ignore the facts and attack the person reporting them. Nice strawman Lan Lan.
You still haven't learned what that word means apparently.
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2015-10-09 at 4:49 PM UTCI found this surprising: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/
Still, the U.S. doesn’t rank No. 1. At 0.15 mass shooting fatalities per 100,000 people, the U.S. had a lower rate than Norway (1.3 per 100,000), Finland (0.34 per 100,000) and Switzerland (1.7 per 100,000).
Who would have expected it.
Regardless, rational people shouldn't be particularly concerned about mass shootings because they account for a tiny percentage of homicides, they simply have a much stronger emotional impact and are much more useful for political exploitation. -
2015-10-10 at 5:26 PM UTCthe reason that japan has no gun violence is because they don't tolerate niggerdom.
"niggerdom is an extrapolated cargo cult" - Crazy Mike -
2015-11-19 at 8:31 PM UTC"I'd rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it."
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2015-11-19 at 8:46 PM UTC
I used to have a liberal stance on gun control and ownership and just the mere presence of guns in general but I've digressed. I just don't care anymore. I do think that we as a citizen-whole do need them/should have them for any type of revolution that might take place (which I strongly hope happens, not that it will because we're fucking pussies and enjoy comfort over discomfort) but I don't understand the whole 'come on my property I'll shoot you dead' ideology that some many right-wing nuts seem to have. It's like there's no gray area with them; if you come around and do something bad you should be shot and you should be shot dead. It doesn't matter if you were stealing change from a car, you should DIE and if you try to steal change from my car you wILL DIE BECAUSE I WILL PROTECT MY FAMILY blah blah. Then there's the whole thing about justifying cops shooting people who draw a gun on them (which is fine, and makes sense), then the same people say they will use their guns to protect themselves from someone else with a gun pointed at them when in reality if the logic holds true, the bad guy with the gun is going to shoot the good guy with the gun the instant the good guy with the gun attempts to draw his weapon in an attempt to defend himself against the bad guy who already has his gun pointed at him/her, therefore rendering the whole idea behind it worthless. Wouldn't it make more sense to lose some monetary value rather than potentially lose your life? But again, I digress. Have your guns, brehs, I personally have never needed one and can't imagine a scenario where I would NEED A GUN. I don't need to be a hero and I'd rather lose physical possessions than potentially my life.
In the south, we aren't stupid enough to trust a government that controls more than they should as it is. They've even forced their bullshit into almost every states school system with the RTTT bullshit Bush and Obama planned with a 70 billion dollar stimulus for our schools, which came with strings attached in fine print. This violates state rights. Common core state standards...which teaches...communism, Marxism and socialism . How many times can history be rewritten? Yea..we will keep our guns. -
2015-11-20 at 3:51 AM UTC
In the south, we aren't stupid enough to trust a government that controls more than they should as it is. They've even forced their bullshit into almost every states school system with the RTTT bullshit Bush and Obama planned with a 70 billion dollar stimulus for our schools, which came with strings attached in fine print. This violates state rights. Common core state standards…which teaches…communism, Marxism and socialism . How many times can history be rewritten? Yea..we will keep our guns.
Yeah, because having guns has really protected your precious states rights so far, hasn't it? -
2015-11-20 at 7:23 AM UTCPoliticizing is inherently loathsome, but if we intend to get to the root of the matter we have to ask why it keeps happening and what we can do to prevent it. Obama knows this, the GOP knows it, the NRA knows it, your liberal Facebook pals know it and and so do you.
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2015-11-22 at 1:19 AM UTC
Politicizing is inherently loathsome, but if we intend to get to the root of the matter we have to ask why it keeps happening and what we can do to prevent it. Obama knows this, the GOP knows it, the NRA knows it, your liberal Facebook pals know it and and so do you.
So what do we all know faggot?
