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Determinism
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2017-06-09 at 2:11 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am in the free will camp.
Philosophers typically consider the issue of free will as being orthogonal to physical determinism. There's not really a good argument for physical indeterminism enabling the libertarian notion of free will beyond what's afforded in a deterministic model.Also, if everything is determined why do we even punish criminals?
Because the society where the outcome of crime is punishment is going to contain fewer criminals than the one where it isn't. How your society deals with criminals is part of the deterministic decision making process that generates criminality. -
2017-06-09 at 2:50 AM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon Every compatibilist is a determinist, but has a reasonable definition of free will.
So rather than answer your question directly right away, I extend the question to you; what would something have to be to considered free will?
Because as it stands, "you" are the conditions and causal chain of events that generate the "decisions" you make. That's your agency. As long as another agent is not literally forcing you to make a decision, then we can say that you, the agent, can freely make whatever decision you are predestined to make.
The problem is when we stumbled upon the issue of choice, and again, it may seem that ultimately you don't make a choice because you could never have made any other choice, but that choice is simply the representation of your setup conditions.
There is a deeper discussion on whether or not that makes it your own choice, if you couldn't choose otherwise. I'd point you to try to read Being and Nothingness by Sartre to get an idea of the discussions surrounding this issue. But it is my view that that is indeed the case.
So to summarise, whether or not you are a compatibilist or a determinist is down to your definition of free will, and I rather believe that the reasonable one is the one that talks about your position as a free agent within the world, not some magical emergence theory where you pull will out of your ass.
Hmmmmm.
I think what I feel at this point is that we DO have free will, but it is restricted by what it is continually determined is within our abilities. If that makes sense.
Like nobody is gonna stop me from swan diving off my balcony right now and snapping my neck on the lawn. I have the choice to do that. The only reason I WOULD, though, is because of..And I keep going back to this, my BRAIN. I feel our individual brains have EVERYTHING to do with this.
It's like the similar people but one is a very active person and one is very lazy. Why are they that way? Perhaps the lazy person wishes he weren't lazy, yet remains lazy. There are determining factors that result in this being the case- why this person can't stop being lazy despite their desires not to.
You always are who you are. You always do what you are intrinsically intended to do based on determined circumstances surrounding you and your makeup.
God I bet I sound dumb. Lol -
2017-06-09 at 2:52 AM UTC
Originally posted by Dargo I know we can predict some behavior. Don't selectively edit my posts you cunt.
Tell me, if a scientist can accurately predict the outcome of a decision you are about to make before you are consciously aware that you have actually made a choice, where is the freedom in this decision?
What degree of human behavior prediction would satisfy you? I mean, if the weatherman could only accurately predict the weather 50% of the time, would you believe the weather has freewill?Then what do you do with people who are not perpetually violent? If a man murders his wife, chances are actually rather low he will go out and murder someone else. So, for one-time crimes, what should we do? Just have a restorative chat? They couldn't help themselves in that instance after all, and won't become repeat offenders.
I don't know, I don't agree with you that anything would have to change at all. We are obviously subject to influences, detriments to crimes like murdering your wife would influence reasonable, sane people to not commit these crimes.
Regardless, freewill is impossible. You are driven by various forces beyond your control. You are not even the author of your own thoughts. I mean, you don't think about what you're going to think about it before you think it. Thoughts just arise in the mind.
If you really believe freewill exists, give me an example of freewill.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2017-06-09 at 2:53 AM UTC
Originally posted by Lanny Philosophers typically consider the issue of free will as being orthogonal to physical determinism. There's not really a good argument for physical indeterminism enabling the libertarian notion of free will beyond what's afforded in a deterministic model.
Can you please reword this for someone with a High School diploma and nothing more? Fucking fancy pants faggots. -
2017-06-09 at 2:54 AM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Tell me, if a scientist can accurately predict the outcome of a decision you are about to make before you are consciously aware that you have actually made a choice, where is the freedom in this decision?
What degree of human behavior prediction would satisfy you? I mean, if the weatherman could only accurately predict the weather 50% of the time, would you believe the weather has freewill?
I don't know, I don't agree with you that anything would have to change at all. We are obviously subject to influences, detriments to crimes like murdering your wife would influence reasonable, sane people to not commit these crimes.
Regardless, freewill is impossible. You are driven by various forces beyond your control. You are not even the author of your own thoughts. I mean, you don't think about what you're going to think about it before you think it. Thoughts just arise in the mind.
If you really believe freewill exists, give me an example of freewill.
Ooh. Does WEATHER have free will? Haha. I like that question as it relates to this discussion.
Free will= I can swan dive off my balcony, as stated. -
2017-06-09 at 2:58 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie It doesn't matter if the Universe is deterministic. I can be happy or sad, it literally doesn't matter because everything has been determined already.
Also saying "free will is not possible" is teh same as me just saying "determinism is not possible", that's not a logical argument.
"It doesn't matter what you do you have no free will anyway"
Yes that is just defining what determinism is and again not an argument. And i know you don't like the "meme-like" nature of saying "not an argument" but it's true in this case.
Do you believe in physics? Do you believe the past is unaffected by the present? If you answered yes to these questions, it should follow that free will is impossible. You are not some magical entity that exists outside of the realm of cause and effect. -
2017-06-09 at 3 AM UTC
Free will= I can swan dive off my balcony, as stated.
Ok, why do you believe jumping off of something demonstrated free will? -
2017-06-09 at 3 AM UTCSo is this probabilistic or whatever? It may not be PURE free will but it still, for all intents and purposes, is free will. Why can't free will and determinism coincide? I feel they absolutely can.
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2017-06-09 at 3:01 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 3:11 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Because I could not jump also.
Right, except you did jump. Either you did so randomly, in which case you demonstrate no freewill or control over the decision, or something drove you to jump or caused you to jump, again demonstrating no freewill. Where do you see the freewill? -
2017-06-09 at 3:20 AM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Do you believe in physics? Do you believe the past is unaffected by the present? If you answered yes to these questions, it should follow that free will is impossible. You are not some magical entity that exists outside of the realm of cause and effect.
Physics is not something to be believed in it just is. And while the present does not affect the past the present does affect the future. And fuck yeah i am magical(Not really but...->). I am a human being, i can see the future by thinking about it and adjust my actions accordingly. Free will. -
2017-06-09 at 3:23 AM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Right, except you did jump. Either you did so randomly, in which case you demonstrate no freewill or control over the decision, or something drove you to jump or caused you to jump, again demonstrating no freewill. Where do you see the freewill?
I feel like we sort of agree on our views. Both cases are correct, I still get to choose.
This is why I want to learn. What I think of determinism I think of as having free will to make choices but those choices will always fall under certain guidelines that your mind is conditioned to. It is still my choice to dive. Why I choose one way or the other, is of course, determined by me, and what I know and believe. That is why I say we have partial free will or whatever the fuxk.
WHATEVER THE FUCK!!!!
HAHA -
2017-06-09 at 3:38 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am a human being, i can see the future by thinking about it and adjust my actions accordingly. Free will.
Imagine there is something you really want to do, but you know you would get in a lot of trouble for doing it. You don't do the crime. You seem to think this would demonstrate free will. In reality, the part of your brain that is influenced by the crime you want to commit just isn't as strong as the part of your brain that is influenced by the punishment you would receive. On this occasion.
On another occasion, your behavior might be driven to a different outcome. You might commit the crime one day. Either way, there is no freedom in the decison. Your mind just does what it does, just like every other physical system. There is no magical "seat of consciousness" where turn the knobs and dials. Your thoughts and behaviors are driven. You are not the author of your own thoughts any more than you are the author of the words I am typing into this post. -
2017-06-09 at 3:42 AM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Do you believe in physics? Do you believe the past is unaffected by the present? If you answered yes to these questions, it should follow that free will is impossible. You are not some magical entity that exists outside of the realm of cause and effect.
What is your definition of free will? What would qualify as free will? -
2017-06-09 at 3:43 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 3:43 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Can you please reword this for someone with a High School diploma and nothing more? Fucking fancy pants faggots.
"Physical determinism" is like a statement about the physical world. If the world is physically deterministic than what things are going to be like tomorrow is determined only by the current state of the world, there's only one possible outcome of "history" in a general sense: that is nothing that happened could have been otherwise and everything about our future is fixed by the status of the world right now. So that's one argument people have, over wether or not our physical world supports multiple outcomes, the argument on the subject of physical determinism.
There's a separate argument about "free will". Some people believe wether we have free will or not can be answered by the question "is the universe physically deterministic", that us having free will requires that there are multiple possible futures for us and that our choices steer us towards some of those futures but not others. Others thing the question of physical determinism is irrelevant, like maybe we have free will regardless of the physical reality, or maybe we don't have free will whatever the answer on the question of "is the universe physically deterministic" is.
As to this:There's not really a good argument for physical indeterminism enabling the libertarian notion of free will beyond what's afforded in a deterministic model
We can imagine a world that isn't physically deterministic. That is to say there are multiple possible outcomes for physical events wherein we fundamentally can not predict their outcomes based on the current state of the world, the world is indeterministic. This doesn't mean our choices are "free", indeed if anything they're random and we have no say in them, what we do is a series of dice rolls. When we talk about freedom in the sense of "freedom from slavery" it's true we don't imagine a person's ever action being pre-decided, as it is in some sense in a deterministic universe, but we don't imagine a free man wandering around aimlessly or taking truly random actions in the word, which is the analogy I'll draw a person in an indeterministic universe.
If we believe that free will is possible at all, then it seems like it seems like the question of wether we have it or not can't be solved by answering the physical question of determinism, we can't simply say we are free because out choices are not predetermined. Random choices, cosmic rolls of dice, are not predetermined but they are aren't "free" either. -
2017-06-09 at 3:48 AM UTCAgain, I can't believe how retarded Obbe is being in this thread. If your only point is that you're defining free will as a magical uncaused RNGesus idea, no shit you can't have "free will". You also can't have a cube that is shaped like a sphere. No shit. That's not what free will is.
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2017-06-09 at 3:49 AM UTC
Originally posted by Lanny We can imagine a world that isn't physically deterministic. That is to say there are multiple possible outcomes for physical events wherein we fundamentally can not predict their outcomes based on the current state of the world, the world is indeterministic. This doesn't mean our choices are "free", indeed if anything they're random and we have no say in them, what we do is a series of dice rolls. When we talk about freedom in the sense of "freedom from slavery" it's true we don't imagine a person's ever action being pre-decided, as it is in some sense in a deterministic universe, but we don't imagine a free man wandering around aimlessly or taking truly random actions in the word, which is the analogy I'll draw a person in an indeterministic universe.
If we believe that free will is possible at all, then it seems like it seems like the question of wether we have it or not can't be solved by answering the physical question of determinism, we can't simply say we are free because out choices are not predetermined. Random choices, cosmic rolls of dice, are not predetermined but they are aren't "free" either.
Why does it have to be random though? Can't we just say, well, given Lanny's previous physical state or whatever there's N percentage of chance that he will do this or the other next. And if so, how does that not suggest there isn't a measure of free will at least. -
2017-06-09 at 3:49 AM UTC
Originally posted by Lanny "Physical determinism" is like a statement about the physical world. If the world is physically deterministic than what things are going to be like tomorrow is determined only by the current state of the world, there's only one possible outcome of "history" in a general sense: that is nothing that happened could have been otherwise and everything about our future is fixed by the status of the world right now. So that's one argument people have, over wether or not our physical world supports multiple outcomes, the argument on the subject of physical determinism.
There's a separate argument about "free will". Some people believe wether we have free will or not can be answered by the question "is the universe physically deterministic", that us having free will requires that there are multiple possible futures for us and that our choices steer us towards some of those futures but not others. Others thing the question of physical determinism is irrelevant, like maybe we have free will regardless of the physical reality, or maybe we don't have free will whatever the answer on the question of "is the universe physically deterministic" is.
As to this:
We can imagine a world that isn't physically deterministic. That is to say there are multiple possible outcomes for physical events wherein we fundamentally can not predict their outcomes based on the current state of the world, the world is indeterministic. This doesn't mean our choices are "free", indeed if anything they're random and we have no say in them, what we do is a series of dice rolls. When we talk about freedom in the sense of "freedom from slavery" it's true we don't imagine a person's ever action being pre-decided, as it is in some sense in a deterministic universe, but we don't imagine a free man wandering around aimlessly or taking truly random actions in the word, which is the analogy I'll draw a person in an indeterministic universe.
If we believe that free will is possible at all, then it seems like it seems like the question of wether we have it or not can't be solved by answering the physical question of determinism, we can't simply say we are free because out choices are not predetermined. Random choices, cosmic rolls of dice, are not predetermined but they are aren't "free" either.
How do you define free will? -
2017-06-09 at 3:50 AM UTCMr Qyuus, ignore the fucktards until they define free will as something not retarded.
