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Determinism
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2017-06-08 at 11:17 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Here mmQ, this should interest you:
I actually read his book a couple of weeks ago.
Thank you. I'm going to continue listening to it at a time where it hasn't been determined that ongoing silverware clanking the FUCKING plates isn't CONSTANTLY lingering in the stupid fucking background. -
2017-06-08 at 11:18 PM UTC
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2017-06-08 at 11:24 PM UTC
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Freewill is not possible. Doesn't matter if the world is random, determined, or probabilistic. None of those leave any room for magical free will.
People that harm other people should be separated from the general population, not out of "punishment" but simply because it is safer for all the normal people until we can figure out how/if we can fix whatever is wrong with the criminal.
Your aspirations can affect your future behaviors just as much as doubt and depression can, along with a variety of other factors.
It doesn't matter if the Universe is deterministic. I can be happy or sad, it literally doesn't matter because everything has been determined already.
Also saying "free will is not possible" is teh same as me just saying "determinism is not possible", that's not a logical argument.
Originally posted by Open Your Mind Have you ever tried not doing anything at all? Try it tomorrow. Just don't get out of bed. It will be extremely difficult for you to do so, if not impossible. And either way, whether you succeed or fail, has nothing to do with free will whatsoever.
"It doesn't matter what you do you have no free will anyway"
Yes that is just defining what determinism is and again not an argument. And i know you don't like the "meme-like" nature of saying "not an argument" but it's true in this case. -
2017-06-08 at 11:43 PM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Essentially, we do for the most part have free will, but what we choose will never be different than what has already been determined will be chosen given your unique brain and your circumstances.
Wall of text notwithstanding saying what i quoted logically excludes determinism from being reality. Even if we were to say we only have 0.1% free will that makes it so a deterministic Universe is not the way reality works. In this case we still have a probabilistic Universe even if it's just 0.1%. -
2017-06-08 at 11:58 PM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie I am in the free will camp. Also, if everything is determined why do we even punish criminals? They can't help it, it was destined to happen so it is unfair to punish them. Also, why should we ever aspire to anything? If we fail it was determined that we would, if we succeed same story. So why not just don't do anything at all? Because you can't go wrong in a deterministic Universe.
I totally agree.
If its determined that someone will fail, they will say "fuck this" and not work any harder than he has to, because he already knows hes going to end up a failure.
Same thing goes for someone that knows they are going to succeed no matter what.
Then all of a sudden free will comes along... and said failure robs and then kills the successful guy, and gets away with it. That failure has now become successful.
Vice versa
Successful guy, with his free will, acts stupid with all his money, and loses it all. Now hes a failure.
So fuck this "determined" bullshit. -
2017-06-09 at 12:17 AM UTCYea, generally I am pretty determined to do things like do well at school etc
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2017-06-09 at 12:27 AM UTC
Originally posted by Pursuit-of-Happiness I totally agree.
If its determined that someone will fail, they will say "fuck this" and not work any harder than he has to, because he already knows hes going to end up a failure.
Same thing goes for someone that knows they are going to succeed no matter what.
Then all of a sudden free will comes along… and said failure robs and then kills the successful guy, and gets away with it. That failure has now become successful.
Vice versa
Successful guy, with his free will, acts stupid with all his money, and loses it all. Now hes a failure.
So fuck this "determined" bullshit.
Or they might say, fuck this, my brain seems not to have that ability despite my best efforts, I will instead focus my efforts on a new task that I can this far determine is within my capabilities.
But yes, if it's determined you will fail, then you will fail. If you don't fail, then it was clearly never determines that you would. -
2017-06-09 at 12:33 AM UTC
Originally posted by Sophie Wall of text notwithstanding saying what i quoted logically excludes determinism from being reality. Even if we were to say we only have 0.1% free will that makes it so a deterministic Universe is not the way reality works. In this case we still have a probabilistic Universe even if it's just 0.1%.
To me, it's like this. I can tell you right now to raise your right arm in the air for a few seconds. Do it.
....
...
..
Did you?
You definitely had the free will to choose if you did it or not.
Now, as I see it, in a deterministic universe, regardless of what you chose, it was determined to happen that way based on your brain, and history, and experiences. If you chose not to raise it in an effort to demonstrate your free will to ignore my request, determinism dictates your decision to be the person that would make that choice, for that reason, because everything you've ever learned combined with your brain's wiring would never have had you raise your hand, ever, essentially because, and for lack of a better phrase, 'it's who you are.' -
2017-06-09 at 12:34 AM UTCThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
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2017-06-09 at 12:35 AM UTC
Originally posted by infinityshock now youre just throwing unnecessarily long words onto the screen and hoping these crack-addled retards cant understand them…staring at their screens…drooling…and nodding in agreement because theyre so fucking stupid.
Those words aren't very long for a normal adult. -
2017-06-09 at 12:51 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Or they might say, fuck this, my brain seems not to have that ability despite my best efforts, I will instead focus my efforts on a new task that I can this far determine is within my capabilities.
But yes, if it's determined you will fail, then you will fail. If you don't fail, then it was clearly never determines that you would.
Most people aren't that smart tho. To realize they're good at "whatever" and put their effort and skills towards "whatever".
But what you're talking about here is "being determined" and NOT the "everything is pre-determined" philosophy of things.
Post last edited by Pursuit-of-Happiness at 2017-06-09T00:54:16.819313+00:00 -
2017-06-09 at 1:01 AM UTC
Originally posted by Pursuit-of-Happiness Most people aren't that smart tho. To realize they're good at "whatever" and put their effort and skills towards "whatever".
But what you're talking about here is "being determined" and NOT the "everything is pre-determined" philosophy of things.
Post last edited by Pursuit-of-Happiness at 2017-06-09T00:54:16.819313+00:00
This is why I'm curious about the subtle differences betwixt predeterminism and determinism.
I'm learning while voicing my feelings.
Regardless of how smart someone is, anyone can determine for themselves what is worth pursuing. Their determination might be innacurate, but it still exists. -
2017-06-09 at 1:18 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 1:23 AM UTC
Troll Detected -
2017-06-09 at 1:34 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 1:41 AM UTCITT: Retards.
The difference between compatibilism and determinism is merely the those who reject compatibility have an idiotic pie in the sky magical idea of "free will", like you're spontaneously generating decisions from your immortal soul or something.
To those who reject compatibilism; what would qualify as free will to you? -
2017-06-09 at 1:43 AM UTC
Originally posted by Captain Falcon ITT: Retards.
The difference between compatibilism and determinism is merely the those who reject compatibility have an idiotic pie in the sky magical idea of "free will", like you're spontaneously generating decisions from your immortal soul or something.
To those who reject compatibilism; what would qualify as free will to you?
What is retarded about trying to learn where I would accurately be categorized? -
2017-06-09 at 1:45 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 1:46 AM UTC
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2017-06-09 at 1:59 AM UTC
Originally posted by mmQ Have you read what I said. Do you agree or disagree? Do you think I'm actually a determinist?
Every compatibilist is a determinist, but has a reasonable definition of free will.
So rather than answer your question directly right away, I extend the question to you; what would something have to be to considered free will?
Because as it stands, "you" are the conditions and causal chain of events that generate the "decisions" you make. That's your agency. As long as another agent is not literally forcing you to make a decision, then we can say that you, the agent, can freely make whatever decision you are predestined to make.
The problem is when we stumbled upon the issue of choice, and again, it may seem that ultimately you don't make a choice because you could never have made any other choice, but that choice is simply the representation of your setup conditions.
There is a deeper discussion on whether or not that makes it your own choice, if you couldn't choose otherwise. I'd point you to try to read Being and Nothingness by Sartre to get an idea of the discussions surrounding this issue. But it is my view that that is indeed the case.
So to summarise, whether or not you are a compatibilist or a determinist is down to your definition of free will, and I rather believe that the reasonable one is the one that talks about your position as a free agent within the world, not some magical emergence theory where you pull will out of your ass.
