User Controls
Why did the native americans not develop...
-
2023-07-30 at 11:04 AM UTC... ships? Did they have ships? I mean... they had boats. Is this a case where the ships existed, and rather than being told of the great Aztec navy and its fleets of quinqueremes, we're handed bullshit stories about how the natives "couldn't even see the tall ships" when Europeans made contact (because they broke their conception of reality that hard, obviously, despite ships just being "boats, but bigger")? That'd make sense, and if so, disregard this line of questioning and tell me all about their cool ship designs.
'cause like, look, I'm somewhat sympathetic to "the americas didn't have animals to domesticate" and "they hadn't invented the wheel1 because they lacked beasts of burden to make use of the technology". I don't quite buy that completely - disregarding the fact that there were native camels and horses when they reached the continent and it's likely that they hunted them to extinction, I think it's probably the case that anything can be domesticated with enough effort. Even - or especially - humans2. But okay. So there was nothing to pull a cart except people, and hand carts have pretty niche value for a civilization compared to, say, wagons. Wagons enable commerce on a scale impossible for humans to manage unaided by animals - at least not without far more advanced supplemental technologies, like mechanical engines.
Or... ships? Ships aren't a "far more advanced technology" - people have been cruising around the Mediterranean for thousands of years!
Yeah, this is becoming a bit of a sticking point for me. Okay, so they didn't have a vast horse-powered overland trade network because there were no horses, or really, animals "suitable" for domestication period (alpacas, llamas, and pre contact dogs not withstanding). Sure. But a ship is just a big ol' boat, and boats (canoes, rafts) are basically a universal human invention. The Iroquois lived in longhouses IIRC, they had canoes, and like... what is a galleon if not a "longhouse canoe"? Lord knows if I were Iroquois and trying to explain the Europeans' ships to my people, that's how I'd do it. A galleon is a big leap from a canoe, but they had nothing to rival a viking longship?
Like, if anything, the fact that they didn't have the domesticated animals required to make overland navigation massively more efficient would have created more pressure to develop technologies that facilitated maritime navigation. Polynesian islander migration/the Maori/etc never really developed huge ships either, but they certainly got bigger than anything I know of from pre-contact North America (of course, I'm not particularly knowledgeable/well read).
So why no ships?
(Racist answers and mindless shitposts are expected - and not totally unwelcome - but any genuine hypotheses beyond the obvious "they were too dumb" that you psychopaths might generate would be much better appreciated.)
1 | They totally did invent the wheel, there are toys featuring wheels, but they didn't use the wheel to the extent people in the old world did.
2 | Maybe that's our unique quality, the thing that sets us apart from the rest rest of nature: we are domesticators. By nature. Civilization is the product of self-domestication, not wisdom (certainly not wisdom alone, anyhow). Homo sapiens domesticus, not Homo sapiens sapiens - we might be wise, but if we are, we were never wise enough to warrant two uses of the word. That's just cocky. -
2023-07-30 at 11:10 AM UTCThe best non-racist theory I've come up with on my own is just "it never occurred to anyone", which feels pretty weak (and is still kinda racist if you treat 'capacity for creativity' as a racial quality), but I mean... if you never think to do something, then you aren't going to do it. Do I think that's likely? I dunno. It feels like thinking "man, hauling these goods to the next village for trade is hella easy by canoe compared to walking... I could make like... a super canoe and take everybody's stuff for them" should be pretty common, as thoughts go. And that's just villages.
There were whole ass empires. With whole ass economies. No Incan, Mayan, or Aztec ever hit an ocean and thought "sheeeit, maybe"?
How is it that the Vikings could make it to Vinland by island hopping, but the reverse journey was impossible for natives?
What did Native Americans even think of the oceans? -
2023-07-30 at 11:17 AM UTCThey were too busy fucking niggers, silly.The following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
-
2023-07-30 at 11:17 AM UTCDey invented pyramids and that cool transporter thing off Stargate so they transport eachother to different continents and sheet plus they could turn into animals and flyThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire!
-
2023-07-30 at 11:36 AM UTCβ β*$Pβ³C3βπκ°-β ^β κ±vππ΄ββ οΈβ«·απαβ«Έβ‘5H33PβΒ°β©πͺ Tuskegee Airman
Originally posted by WellHung They were too busy fucking niggers, silly.
DA NA ANANA N AN ANNA NANANANANAN ANAN!!!
Folks because natives lived simply no grind and grustle. They regularly steal oatmeal from the mother earth, milk goasts and chickens and grow and eat corn from seed . also hunt
(β Ν‘Β° ΝΚ Ν‘Β°)β"πΏππππ ππΎ hunt and gather πΎπ'
( Β΄ο½₯Οο½₯)γ£(ΫΆΰ« α΅Μ Πα΅Μ)ΫΆΰ«πππκ°-β ^β κ±vπππ
(β Ν‘Β° ΝΚ Ν‘Β°)
'πππΎπ ππΎ leave' as is tradition in our culture
( Β΄ο½₯Οο½₯)γ£( Β΄ο½₯Οο½₯)γ£( Β΄ο½₯Οο½₯)γ£πͺΆπͺπ¦π
\\\\////
|.)(.|
| || |
\(__)/
|-..-|
|o\/o|
.----\ /----.
/ / / |~~~~| \ \ \
/ / / /|::::|\ \ \ \
'-'-'-'-|::::|-'-'-'-'
(((^^)))
>>><<<
||||||
(o)(o)
| /\ |
(====)
|_/\_|
(_/\_)
_|_,__|_
(___\____)
/ \ _.-----._ /`\ _ _
__/ _\_. ':. ' :'. \,/
/__ \,`. `: ':'. _
/ ___\_`.'.':.`: /'\ /
_/___ \ .: ' `: /
_/ __\__.`:': __/
__- _--/ ; \;': \ | / /
`~`~` ~~`~~ \\ || // __/__
; ~~`~~`~~ `~~`~`~~` \\||//_/ \__
`~~`~ ~`~~`~~`~ ~`~~`~`~ \\// \
~`~~` ~~~|~~~ ~`~~`~~`~~~ / \
`~~`~ `~~~`~~~` __ - ~`~||~~` /====\
~~|~~` ~~`|~~~__ ~~~`~`~~~~/\/\/\/\
~~`~~~__ _ |_- `|' ~~`~~~||~~~/,____ \
__|_-- - | \( )/ ~~`~||~~/ |/(__)\\ \
| | | | || / /\/\ \
| // \\ ||/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
;;.---.;; |/================\
;; () () ;; /O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=\
;;-() ()-;; /======X|\===========\
; \() ()/ ; / X| \ \
,,;,, () () / X| \ \
,;, / ,,;,, .===. / X| | _ \
\,|,,/ | | / ( * X| | ==== \
,,;,,| | | / ) X| /- \\|
\ /,,;,, /^| | |\/___( )___O___|o /o } (@)______
,,\|__/ <(- / ||||| /=/\=\ / \ `/ ()
/ | ||| /((__))\ []/| \/ ()
\(__,\ (|) _/_) *(* _\_ / /|\
( )_)(_))(_)_) _/ |
Ε» _________ (__\________/
\|/ |)\{'}/(| __
|\ /| )(
\|/ |-| |-| _ /XX\ __
.-'- . |/ ___ \|\ )( (____)___ -
,;;' ' . - ' ';, |)/___\(| \ (__) -__- ~~~~~
~;);' ;;;~ \|/ __-__~~~~~~~~
)(;; ' ) ( ;);;, \|| |/ -___-~~~~~~~ ~~~
;;;); / ' - - - \ (;;),;~ ||/ __ _(_)-~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
~;;`;/ ' \ ;);;;;, \||(__)~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
(~;;/ .' \';(;;>;> __--~~~~~~~~ ~~~____~~~~
\||/. / __ \\ \ -;; -~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~ _/ \___/
|||/ \|| _(__) _\\ \ _|~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~/ /
\||/ .:|||.(_____)_)~~ (_)~~~ ~~~~~~~__~/_~~~ ~|__~~~
\||_ -- _|||_ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~/ \~~~~~~~
- ~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~|~~~~ ~~~~
~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -
2023-07-30 at 12:38 PM UTCmy guess is there was no need for them; without looking it up I'm sure they had small fishing and maybe raiding boats.
in Europe a major driver for conflict and invention was a lack of space relative to the population; transport ships were necessary to expand beyond the available land mass. in the Americas and Africa they had the space to live and grow food, there wasn't the same impetus to expand because they were able to live (comparatively) comfortably without the need to expend the effort and resources to expand over sea -
2023-07-30 at 12:43 PM UTCthey didn't do meth so they didn't ponder retarded questions
-
2023-07-30 at 4:09 PM UTCSumerians invented the wheel around the 4th millennium BC nit American Indians.
-
2023-07-30 at 4:27 PM UTCThey had rafts/canoes and could swim. They used these on lakes and rivers. However because for the entire history of time anyone who ventured forward in a raft/canoe out of eyesight of those on land, they didn't come back dude and everyone would go to the ocean and remember him as the man who (Some hocus pocahantas bullshit) happened to and now he's the reason we get such regular, dependable rain.
They had no concept that if you go 3,000 miles in one direction, you'll find more primative people and identical resources at huge great personal cost as no one is friendly to outside tribes (mostly)
the other fact is America big as fuck, 90+% native tribes didn't leave near oceans.
70 indians coulnd't run a casino until they brought jedis in (at least in wisconsin) and are now rolling in money at the reservation trailer park.
THey're basically retarded bro you understand that right? I knew one native american in prison who went to the hole because he cracked his reading lamp/lightbulb and decided to fucking tape it together, a 40 something year old man, then turn it on and walk away since he's the smartest and fixed it, his cell filled with smoke and i never saw him after he went to the hole on a 90 or 180 for starting fires etc.
these people are so fucking stupid bro that knapping (breaking rocks to get a sharp poiint) continies to be practiced by them to this day, the hopi had no past tense in their language and the best city they could make independent of other races was the same shit next to most freeover passes where people utilize 1 sheet and some string.
primative, you know many of them developed a written language or like anythingThe following users say it would be alright if the author of this post didn't die in a fire! -
2023-07-30 at 4:29 PM UTC"The three sisters allow us to grow 3 different plants that all assist one another in the process of growing byproviding support, nurturing the soil and allowing a trellis to form.
I took one look at that hokey ass good feel story and knew knew them dumb fuckers just poured all the seeds they had and got lucky. Now it's like a high point at every native american anything to tell you this.
I'm like yeah we made smallpox and weaponized it, same year. -
2023-07-30 at 4:31 PM UTCi like when they put on all those feathers and get the white drums and dance like a stereotype for money once a year in Wisocnsin, I eat a lot of funnel cake, comment about how a lot of the native women look like pocahantus (From the disney movies) or a chubby male.
oh and I like how if you tell any native american any of this and he's with 10 others of his loser squad, they'll declare tribe warfare on you and bury you on the reservation where the police don't go due to jurisdiction. -
2023-07-30 at 4:32 PM UTC"a once proud warrior nation"
yeah till fuckin like 400 white people showed up and destroyed your continent of united tribes -
2023-07-30 at 4:33 PM UTCMy real name is Jason Thunderclap Morningwood but u can just all me JT, lol every native kid had a name like this in primary school.
-
2023-07-30 at 4:51 PM UTCOne A Rainy Day little Bradley asked his native American step-dad...
Why is my brother named Soaring Eagle? The Chief replies, "When your brother was born the first thing I did was take him outside, and saw a eagle soaring through the air." The boy then asks, "Why is my sister named Sitting Bull?" The boys father says, "When your sister was born I brought her outside and the first thing I saw was A bull sit down in the field.
And now you know why he is known as two dogs fucking in his adopted tribe... -
2023-07-30 at 5:58 PM UTCMy family don't fuck with non white people and looks down on me for speaking spanish and listening to rap music.
-
2023-07-30 at 7:28 PM UTCDunno why people have such a problem with the simple answer, that they were too dumb. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.
If you'd like me to go all Gun and Germs pseudoscientific and start making up elaborate excuses, they didn't have any reason to do so, since they didn't have any mercantile networks in place to incentivise trade. This was a problem when the Chinese built their first fleets and started exploring the world, they went all the way to Africa, did a little writing about what they found, then headed home and scrapped their ships. Ditto the Arabs, whose scholar-explorers penetrated deep into Africa and Asia.
The problem was that while trade was something they were interested in, they hadn't the logistics or the socio-economic and legal frameworks in place to incentivise it.* The Europeans who sailed with Magellan or Columbus were desperate and determined young men who took enormous struggles on with a high risk of death (like 1/3rd chance of dying horribly on any of these voyages) in hopes of bringing back trade goods to Europe and being set for life. Exploration and Mercantilism were dependent on each other, and European monarchs, banks, trading houses and jedi families expanded their Mercantile empire by investing for return and lending at interest, which necessitated continual expansion.
*Also Chinese just weren't interested in the goods the rest of the world could produce and arabs are too lazy. -
2023-07-30 at 8:05 PM UTC
Originally posted by aldra my guess is there was no need for them; without looking it up I'm sure they had small fishing and maybe raiding boats.
in Europe a major driver for conflict and invention was a lack of space relative to the population; transport ships were necessary to expand beyond the available land mass. in the Americas and Africa they had the space to live and grow food, there wasn't the same impetus to expand because they were able to live (comparatively) comfortably without the need to expend the effort and resources to expand over sea
Man okay but are you seriously trying to tell me these niggas:
Only lived in the fucking arctic because it was "comparatively comfortable" relative to France in the 1400s? I mean, sure, I'd rather live there than modern France, but it seems more likely they've lived - to reiterate - in the fucking arctic for as long as they have because territories further south, with more plentiful food and whatnot, were not available to them. Seems more likely they were forced north at some point after crossing from Asia and dealt with it, than it does "they popped a squat in the arctic during the ice age and decided 'this is fine' for the next 15,000 years". I mean, presumably your theory for old world behavior implies the Sami only did similar in Europe because they were forced to by the same geographic and political realities whose absence you're using to explain the Americas, right? Do the Inuit just find living in houses made of literal snow "more comfy" than living somewhere south of the tree line? Are they just built different, or what?
Also: in the year 1400, estimates put the entire world's population at ~350mil. The estimates for pre-contact American population range from ~50 mil to as high as 100 mil (apparently - I'm sticking with the low end personally, but even then it's quite a lot). A seventh to nearly a third of the global population was here. The Americas are "big" but I'm not sure they're so big that you can squeeze a full 15%-30% of the world's population into the most habitable parts and claim they're living in the kind of comparative comfort that leads to considerably less pressure to trade and wage wars in the ways that ships facilitate.
Europe (~10.53 million km^2) may only be a ~quarter of the size of the Americas (~42.55 million km^2), but there's also... you know... Asia. Asia and Europe combined are ~25% bigger than the Americas. And that's completely ignoring Africa. If you throw Africa in, the old world is ~double the size of the Americas . Admittedly, this does still mean population density was higher, but again: people have been sailing the Mediterranean for thousands of years. In 500BCE, when Greeks were kicking ass with their triremes, the world's populations was probably around 100 million. The source for that number splits by hemisphere putting 85 million in the Western/old world and 15 million in the Eastern/new world, "mostly in mesoamerica". So in the year 500BCE, the old world's population was 85 million and living in an area of roughly 85.48 million km^2 (this is just quick google numbers for Europe, Asia, and Africa added together. You can throw in Australia and New Zealand and shit - their populations are almost certainly included in the 100 mil, likely as part of the 85 mil - but I don't know for sure, and that feels like cheating to me). The New World's population in 1400 was at least 50 million, living in an area roughly 42.55 million km^2 in size. Now I'm not too good at math, but I think if you put 85 over 85 and 50 over 42... 50 over 42 is a bigger number. The population density of the Americas (using the lower bound of the estimate range for population!) was actually higher prior to contact with Europeans than that of the old world at a time 200 years after the likely invention of the trireme. And that was likely true for a century or two pre-contact. If we use the higher bound of native population just for fun, the new world was more than twice as densely populated compared to the old world.
I guess you could say the new world had more arable land or something, but even once they domesticated the "three sisters" they still relied on hunter-gather subsistence at a civilizational scale - it's not like they were using it on a comparable per capita basis. And honestly? I suspect that the quantities of arable land were comparable in both the old and new worlds too (relative to population, at the relevant periods in time), but I'd need to do more stimmies to research that myself. -
2023-07-30 at 8:07 PM UTC
Originally posted by Meikai ships just being "boats, but bigger"
Building a ship isn't really the same thing as building a boat.
It's a bit like comparing building Notre Damme to some African's hut.
To build a boat you need materials, you need finance, you need people, you need knowhow, you need organisation. First of all where does the wood come from? European countries had specific forests for materials, they had universities, they had guilds, they had military organisations, they had banks and money lenders, they had trading houses, they had all those things you need before you go to build a ship.
Here's an extract from Daniel Everett's 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes' about his time with the Amazonian PirahΓ£s, a primitive and unevolved tribe.
https://twitter.com/Paracelsus1092/status/1681964177445777408
There are more extracts, including their nonce hijinks, at the link. -
2023-07-30 at 8:25 PM UTC
Originally posted by Donald Trump Building a ship isn't really the same thing as building a boat.
It's a bit like comparing building Notre Damme to some African's hut.
To build a boat you need materials, you need finance, you need people, you need knowhow, you need organisation. First of all where does the wood come from? European countries had specific forests for materials, they had universities, they had guilds, they had military organisations, they had banks and money lenders, they had trading houses, they had all those things you need before you go to build a ship.
Here's an extract from Daniel Everett's 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes' about his time with the Amazonian PirahΓ£s, a primitive and unevolved tribe.
https://twitter.com/Paracelsus1092/status/1681964177445777408
There are more extracts, including their nonce hijinks, at the link.
I knew someone was going to say this, and believe it or not, I refrained from addressing it because I figured "nah they'll get that I mean conceptually, it is not a massive leap from boat to ship, and once the thought has occurred you can set about the process of invention and make it a thing". Hard to believe, I know, with how much I still over-explain and belabor every point I make by trying to cover arguments before they're made, but sometimes I get the better of myself and decide that's a silly thing to do. Alas.
Yes, Europeans ended up having guilds and universities and forests from which they harvested ship timbers and techniques for growing trees in a shape more suited to shipbuilding, but they had all that because they'd been building ships since before universities, before guilds, before specially designated forests etc etc etc. Someone has to build the first ship and they don't have access to any of that shit, because all of that shit is knowledge and infrastructure that you build up over millennia in an effort to better and better facilitate the ship building you're already doing.
When the Corinthians made the first Trireme in the year 700 BC, what was that based on? What was the thing it was based on based on? Eventually you're going to get down to a boat and a guy who wanted "that, but bigger, so I can fit lots of ____ in it" (sacks of grain, guys with swords, whatever), and he had the social pull and resources to make it a reality. Maybe the journey from boats to ships is just 1000 iterations of that guy progressively making boats bigger and bigger until "oh fuck! man, we need a new word for boats this big". I don't know. But I do know that whoever the first person in the old world to build a ship was, he (or she, but let's be real: likely he *shakes fist at patriarchy*) didn't have any of that. -
2023-07-30 at 9:28 PM UTCGood point. Europeans were able to build ships from virtually nothing back in the bronze age. We rule.
