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Fedoras: Or how I learned to start worrying and became a self-loathing STEM fag
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2015-09-19 at 2:22 AM UTC[FONT=arial]So I got the idea in my head that I wanted to watch some of those [/FONT][FONT=arial]online university lectures people always talk about but never do. A [/FONT][FONT=arial]while ago I worked on a little project that required some cursory [/FONT][FONT=arial]knowledge of linguistics (a program to generate phonetic puns). I [/FONT][FONT=arial]managed to hack it with wikipedia but found that part of it really [/FONT][FONT=arial]interesting so I thought to myself "Ima gonna go learn some l[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]inguistics". But when I started looking around at what was out there through I came to a realization: self-education online almost perfectly mirrors the abhorrent superiority complex of dumshit job-hungry STEM undergrads. The first place I looked was MIT and ironically while I'd be willing to forgive them for a STEM focused set of resources (being the renown engineering school) but they actually had one of the better (but still comparatively deficient) representations of the humanities.
Go to [/FONT]https://www.coursera.org/browse/][FONT=arial, sans-serif]coursera[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]. Look at the categories available there. It's fucking retarded that this thing tries to represent itself as a replacement for a liberal education. "Arts and Humanities" are put on the same level as "Computer Science". In the system nearly every great mind of the modern era has been trained in the arts and the humanities are two separate colleges, entirely different from the singular school that includes the disciplines coursera calls "Computer Science", "Math and Logic", "Physical Science and Engineering", and "Life Sciences". Don't even get me started on "Data Science". Fucking data science is a short lived fad with minimal academic recognition and wholly subordinate to CS which is in turn of a subordinate kind to categories like "Humanities".
Offerings in philosophy out of these sites is laughable. Offerings in linguistics are laughable. The only disciplines that seem well represented are computer science and various "hard sciences" like physics and bio.
Listen, I studied computer science. I fucking love computer science, a lot more than I love myself. I eat, breathe, and live this shit and I can see, plain as day, that this is wong. STEM supremacy isn't a thing that exists at a meaningful level among academics, even a fucking hick like me knows that every interesting problem in computer science is a problem in either mathematics or electrical engineering, this is a hodunk subfield that's been risen above it station by a quirk of human history and an accident of the parameters of the physical universe. I love it to death and it's the only useful thing I've ever do with my life but it's a myopic fucking nothing. That doesn't mean it's nothing, there are plenty of hard problems here for people like me, people with a neurotic drive to solve this one particular kind of problem, to understand one miniscule corner of the universe, but look at how the ignorant slobs of the world look at it.
I've been watching people try to get into this field for a long time. People who made it are treated with some kind of bullshit "reverence". I can't count how many time I've heard people say in a self-disparaging manner "I'm not smart enough to write code" or "I guess I'm too dumb to get this". I want to grab them and scream that this isn't intelligence, it's fucking OCD. They try to grab onto something tiny and zoom way in and they fail, they pull back, and they think they're inadequate when what we need is people who can realize that the world where we solve P=NP in order to make prettier graphs of facebook friends if fucking broken on a profound level.
I'm not saying every STEM major needs to go enroll in a philosophy program, god knows that would be the same problem all over again, and I'm the last person who will ever condone the unmitigated fucktardeness that is the concept of an "idea guy". But the point is that we need to think long and hard about what we want out of our careers (not just picking the career path that gives us the most money for the least misery but finding something to spend half your working life doing that you'd give a fuck about if you weren't collecting a check at the end of the month) and how we, as a society, impose our desires on the youth. There was a time when the US was brimming over with lawyers. Another with doctors. The current "computer science"(read: code monkey) craze was a thing back in the first bubble too. For better or worse, our culture generates ideas about who among us have good lives, which jobs are worth having and who is worth emulating. These ideas condemn literally millions of young people a life-long career every single years. It is appropriate then that we think about the assumptions that underpin what occupations we value and to what degree. Just because Apple needs more code monkeys to churn out the next "revolutionary" consumer electronic and is willing to pay a pretty penny to get them, does that mean we need to pressure human beings to giving up a satisfying career to make that happen? If nothing changes there will come a day when the only people qualified to engage with that question will be too poor to feed themselves.[/FONT] -
2015-09-19 at 5:55 PM UTC
fix
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2015-09-19 at 6:10 PM UTCGod damnit, which page were you trying to get to? Create a post or a PM?
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2015-09-19 at 6:28 PM UTCI can't see my PMs or create threads and haven't been able to for hours. Fix it fix it fix iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt now!!! *bangs on desk in alternating rapid succession*
BTW, what's in your system? Just curious if you generally only write like this while stimmed up. -
2015-09-19 at 6:49 PM UTC
God damnit, which page were you trying to get to? Create a post or a PM?
Both bro -
2015-09-19 at 6:57 PM UTCare you really self-loathing, Lanny? from what I understand, you are getting your education and living your life right, what's to loathe about that?
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2015-09-19 at 9:15 PM UTC
I can't see my PMs or create threads and haven't been able to for hours. Fix it fix it fix iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt now!!! *bangs on desk in alternating rapid succession*
I wasn't able to reproduce it on the usual test account. I dropped the system cache which is what usually fixes this problem but since I couldn't observe it in the first place I have no way to verify if it did anything. Is it still happening?BTW, what's in your system? Just curious if you generally only write like this while stimmed up.
2-FMA and booze.are you really self-loathing, Lanny? from what I understand, you are getting your education and living your life right, what's to loathe about that?
Nah, not really. I just strongly identify with a specific sub-culture but then resent some of the emerging trends within it. -
2015-09-19 at 9:19 PM UTCIt's fixed. Arigato, kohai. *pats head*
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2015-09-19 at 9:22 PM UTComg senpai noticed me
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2015-09-19 at 9:22 PM UTCbrave bird x pitysex collab is pretty good tho
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2015-09-19 at 10:06 PM UTC9-lmnop
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2015-09-19 at 10:24 PM UTC
omg senpai noticed me
This gave me a chuckle. Also Lan Lan, IDK bro, what's wrong with having respect for someone who's good at something you're trying to get into. I'm going to sound like a dick riding suck up for this but i don't give a shit. I'm getting into programming and i think it's pretty challenging, then when i see what you know about it i think jesus fucking christ i still have so much to learn and Lan knows all this shit and i respect you for that especially since like i said programming is very challenging to me, feel blood?
Also, STEM is bauce, i'm an EE typa nigga' by education and physics is a big part of that, and i mean, understanding the fundamentals of the Universe seems pretty significant to me.
Incidentally i actually have the brain for the humanities and general social things, the subjects just make sense to me and understanding comes natural, they 'click' in a way. But then i think who gives a flying fuck what kind of bullshit people do and think about. How the Universe and the brain in example works is what's interesting and then i think coding is awesome because it's extremely useful in infosec which you know i have an interest in because who doesn't like to pwn noobs and break shit nahmean? -
2015-09-21 at 11:51 PM UTCLanny, i demand you reply to my post.
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2015-09-22 at 5:33 AM UTC
This gave me a chuckle. Also Lan Lan, IDK bro, what's wrong with having respect for someone who's good at something you're trying to get into. I'm going to sound like a dick riding suck up for this but i don't give a shit. I'm getting into programming and i think it's pretty challenging, then when i see what you know about it i think jesus fucking christ i still have so much to learn and Lan knows all this shit and i respect you for that especially since like i said programming is very challenging to me, feel blood?
Also, STEM is bauce, i'm an EE typa nigga' by education and physics is a big part of that, and i mean, understanding the fundamentals of the Universe seems pretty significant to me.
Incidentally i actually have the brain for the humanities and general social things, the subjects just make sense to me and understanding comes natural, they 'click' in a way. But then i think who gives a flying fuck what kind of bullshit people do and think about. How the Universe and the brain in example works is what's interesting and then i think coding is awesome because it's extremely useful in infosec which you know i have an interest in because who doesn't like to pwn noobs and break shit nahmean?
Well there's a distinction here I think. The two mindsets I resent are "computer science(programming) is a way to make lots of money" and "If you're not in a STEM field then you don't matter". The former really drains the quality from the community that made me love it in the first place, the mirth and lust for knowledge that characterizes "hacker" (I could rant about that term but w/e) culture. I guess it's an inevitable consequence of professionalization but when people are only here to collect a paycheck it stops being about the fun weekend projects, subverting expectations, doing something really novel, especially in an economic clementine that encourages the most conservative, derivative steps towards what we basically already have (consider the number of "X killer" startups. If you define yourself as trying to fill someone else's market niche better then you've resigned yourself, categorically, to non-novel work). In practice it also undermines the academic pursuit as well, when you're just looking to make a buck the only possible payout for disseminating a novel discovery is a meager PR boost, whereas in the days of yore (although this is a tradition that persists in the infosec world to some extend) the reputation you earn from doing something new and interesting was worth far more than a possible market edge because people fucking cared about the opinions of their peers and advancing the state of the art rather than making a buck.
And the other side, STEM supremacy, so far as I can tell, comes from a mere ignorance of the humanities. It's really astounding to see, and you can probably do this yourself with people you know, to ask someone who dismisses philosophy as a field about why they feel that way. Within three sentences you'll hear a philosophical claim that has been argued and understood in the western philosophical tradition for hundreds of years, which has nothing to do with any STEM field, and yet will be presented as some knockdown argument against philosophy as a field. People who buy into this anti-humanities rhetoric are so ignorant of what they oppose they don't even realize their argument for their own position are straight out of historical works in the humanities themselves.
So yeah, I mean programming is hard no doubt, I don't mean to trivialize the efforts of the novice, but it's this tiny corner of the universe, a formal system that's important only because we can make circuits to emulate it quickly (a historical accident). If you're going to devote your time to it I think it's worth asking if you want to learn it because it's interesting or if it's a mere means to an end.
Being the guilty-capitalistic cunt that I am I've read probably every essay Paul Graham has written and I remember something he said (although I can't remember the particular essay because I have a block against his bullshit) that I really agree with although I didn't fully understand at the time. He said that to be a good hacker(read: programmer) you had to enjoy the practice of actually programming. He went on to say that you didn't have to enjoy it so much that it's the your first priority all the time, because even the most devoted programmer will prefer to fuck some hot chick or chill on a Hawaiian beach or something at some point, but the important point was that if you had to choose between watching TV or some other mundane thing you can do every day for a quick hit of pleasure and programming, you would choose programming. And I tend to agree with that, I think that's a good litmus test, if you can't enjoy the material act of plying your trade more than something that's constantly available to you then you're probably better off finding something you like more to spend your life on.
Now you personally, Soph, I have high hopes for you. You're on here, you're on stack overflow, you're asking questions and stumbling your way through real projects when you could be watching something or taking drugs or whatever. God knows I cave to the desire to get drunk, eat icecream, and watch shitty slice of life anime sometimes. Programming as a trade may be secondary to your interests in information security but you have something you're willing to invest the time in getting good at and that's a fucking asset like no other. For whatever reason this field is pretty democratic, people are generally willing to share their knowledge with those who are willing to put in the time, so the blocker is caring enough to put in the time and so far you've done pretty damn well at that. I certainly don't think I'm owed any special respect for whatever level of skill I have in this field but it's not people like you who I'm criticizing here, it's people who are drawn to this field because it's a "good job" and who don't have the spine to say "fuck it" and go get a degree in history or something.
Do you remember the poster ond? He had a lot of alts because he got banned a lot. Fascinating person, in a lot of ways, but there was this period where he was basically teaching me programming. This was back when I was in highschool and like my first year of college, I had muddled around with some BS stuff here and there but wasn't anywhere close to a professional level while he had landed a dev job. We had this little project we both worked on, I'd do some stuff, he'd make it better, I'd ask him why and he'd explain. He worked with me for a month or so, we talked on IRC pretty often, and in that time I learned an incredible amount, but the most important thing I learned by far (and which to this day I think many developers don't know) is the self confidence to dive into problems or source code I don't understand with the conviction that I'll come out the other side with enough understanding to do what I want to. To this day I owe my success in academia to him, and my career to a large extend. He was the person who showed me how to either hack it or recognize inevitable defeat in the face of any odds. His instruction showed me that I was cut out for this, something I wan't sure of before.
Anyway I guess my point, besides dickriding one of the most hated niggers in this community, is that there's a certain constitution you need to be good at this particular thing. If you're not that's fine, there are many other things humans can do, many of which are far more important to us as a species, but to find out if this particular corner of the world is the place for you, you have to charge headlong at the hardest problems you find interesting. It doesn't much matter if you succeed or fail, the important question is if when you get to the other side, when you realize if you can solve your problem or not, if you're ready to go another round, to jump back into the fray and get you ass beat again, if you can enjoy the thrill of the chase regardless of where it lands you then you're made of the same stuff that every world class computer scientist, programmer, and hacker ever was. -
2015-09-22 at 5:34 AM UTCP.S. I'm drunk but I think at least some of that made sense
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2015-09-22 at 5 PM UTC
Well there's a distinction here I think. The two mindsets I resent are "computer science(programming) is a way to make lots of money" and "If you're not in a STEM field then you don't matter". The former really drains the quality from the community that made me love it in the first place, the mirth and lust for knowledge that characterizes "hacker" (I could rant about that term but w/e) culture. I guess it's an inevitable consequence of professionalization but when people are only here to collect a paycheck it stops being about the fun weekend projects, subverting expectations, doing something really novel, especially in an economic clementine that encourages the most conservative, derivative steps towards what we basically already have (consider the number of "X killer" startups. If you define yourself as trying to fill someone else's market niche better then you've resigned yourself, categorically, to non-novel work). In practice it also undermines the academic pursuit as well, when you're just looking to make a buck the only possible payout for disseminating a novel discovery is a meager PR boost, whereas in the days of yore (although this is a tradition that persists in the infosec world to some extend) the reputation you earn from doing something new and interesting was worth far more than a possible market edge because people fucking cared about the opinions of their peers and advancing the state of the art rather than making a buck.
And the other side, STEM supremacy, so far as I can tell, comes from a mere ignorance of the humanities. It's really astounding to see, and you can probably do this yourself with people you know, to ask someone who dismisses philosophy as a field about why they feel that way. Within three sentences you'll hear a philosophical claim that has been argued and understood in the western philosophical tradition for hundreds of years, which has nothing to do with any STEM field, and yet will be presented as some knockdown argument against philosophy as a field. People who buy into this anti-humanities rhetoric are so ignorant of what they oppose they don't even realize their argument for their own position are straight out of historical works in the humanities themselves.
So yeah, I mean programming is hard no doubt, I don't mean to trivialize the efforts of the novice, but it's this tiny corner of the universe, a formal system that's important only because we can make circuits to emulate it quickly (a historical accident). If you're going to devote your time to it I think it's worth asking if you want to learn it because it's interesting or if it's a mere means to an end.
Being the guilty-capitalistic cunt that I am I've read probably every essay Paul Graham has written and I remember something he said (although I can't remember the particular essay because I have a block against his bullshit) that I really agree with although I didn't fully understand at the time. He said that to be a good hacker(read: programmer) you had to enjoy the practice of actually programming. He went on to say that you didn't have to enjoy it so much that it's the your first priority all the time, because even the most devoted programmer will prefer to fuck some hot chick or chill on a Hawaiian beach or something at some point, but the important point was that if you had to choose between watching TV or some other mundane thing you can do every day for a quick hit of pleasure and programming, you would choose programming. And I tend to agree with that, I think that's a good litmus test, if you can't enjoy the material act of plying your trade more than something that's constantly available to you then you're probably better off finding something you like more to spend your life on.
Now you personally, Soph, I have high hopes for you. You're on here, you're on stack overflow, you're asking questions and stumbling your way through real projects when you could be watching something or taking drugs or whatever. God knows I cave to the desire to get drunk, eat icecream, and watch shitty slice of life anime sometimes. Programming as a trade may be secondary to your interests in information security but you have something you're willing to invest the time in getting good at and that's a fucking asset like no other. For whatever reason this field is pretty democratic, people are generally willing to share their knowledge with those who are willing to put in the time, so the blocker is caring enough to put in the time and so far you've done pretty damn well at that. I certainly don't think I'm owed any special respect for whatever level of skill I have in this field but it's not people like you who I'm criticizing here, it's people who are drawn to this field because it's a "good job" and who don't have the spine to say "fuck it" and go get a degree in history or something.
Do you remember the poster ond? He had a lot of alts because he got banned a lot. Fascinating person, in a lot of ways, but there was this period where he was basically teaching me programming. This was back when I was in highschool and like my first year of college, I had muddled around with some BS stuff here and there but wasn't anywhere close to a professional level while he had landed a dev job. We had this little project we both worked on, I'd do some stuff, he'd make it better, I'd ask him why and he'd explain. He worked with me for a month or so, we talked on IRC pretty often, and in that time I learned an incredible amount, but the most important thing I learned by far (and which to this day I think many developers don't know) is the self confidence to dive into problems or source code I don't understand with the conviction that I'll come out the other side with enough understanding to do what I want to. To this day I owe my success in academia to him, and my career to a large extend. He was the person who showed me how to either hack it or recognize inevitable defeat in the face of any odds. His instruction showed me that I was cut out for this, something I wan't sure of before.
Anyway I guess my point, besides dickriding one of the most hated niggers in this community, is that there's a certain constitution you need to be good at this particular thing. If you're not that's fine, there are many other things humans can do, many of which are far more important to us as a species, but to find out if this particular corner of the world is the place for you, you have to charge headlong at the hardest problems you find interesting. It doesn't much matter if you succeed or fail, the important question is if when you get to the other side, when you realize if you can solve your problem or not, if you're ready to go another round, to jump back into the fray and get you ass beat again, if you can enjoy the thrill of the chase regardless of where it lands you then you're made of the same stuff that every world class computer scientist, programmer, and hacker ever was.
An inspirational post for sure, as to the vote of confidence, thank you sir i try me hardest, i consider myself fortunate that i have the intellect to gather the resources that will make a difference in my particular case, if i consider the book i'm working with Black Hat Python, at first i thought: Dang, this is going to be hard as fuck, then i thought fuck it, i'll just read it from cover to cover and do all the projects and even if my understanding only increases by 5% i will still have come out more knowledgeable. Turns out, the book actually helps me a lot, not only in learning programming but computer science in general and of course it makes me more proficient at infosec in the meantime since everything is oriented towards using your programming skills to that end. Mmm, i can't wait until i get to the end where we'll be making a trojan framework, because malware is fucking win on a stick with awesome sprinkled ontop At heart i'm just a lazy nigger though and sometimes i have a hard time motivating myself, but then i think to myself, what if in time, i'll become really proficient. I'll be pretty damn proud of myself and maybe get some stars on github, lol. Seems a silly thing to desire, but some external recognition of my improvements as a programmer will make me feel good and motivate me to get even better.
I thought my idea for gcat was pretty good, make a downloader, start at boot and disable task manager. https://github.com/NullArray/gcat/bl.../downloader.py
It's pretty much a copypasta hackjob but pls notice me senpais. Kek.
As you said, i love how the infosec community is really a community if you put in the work, which i intend to do.
Also, i remember ond, i did not know he was a programmer, pretty cool how he helped you out like that. -
2015-09-23 at 8:34 AM UTC
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